The European War is over and diplomatic relations are at a strain up until the commencement of "Enigma" hostilities.
So...what really happened in the Cold War era (roughly 1919 - 1939).
Question: If the RNE occupy Gibralter and the GGE Mediterranean Fleet want to exit to the Atlantic, what sanctions (if any) exist by the RNE for the transient of "their" strait?
Opinion: The RNE, rightly perturbed by the new King's pressence in the homeland, and inaccessable to invasion by the GGE land forces thanks to the graciousness of a neutral Spain; ...
- fail to allow any GGE shipping to cross?
- allow GGE shipping on payment of fees much akin to a canal crossing?
- graciously allow the GGE to pass, whilst secretly passing the movements of such ships onto the Assasisns for their "intercession" from their base in Casablanca?
General Topics
Post a replyThe Cold War
20 posts
I believe the cold war started somewhere around 1917-18, after the US supported an uprising in Ireland and Britain's position in Europe became untenable. It ended on Oct 17 1937 when the USA callously bombed the Imperial Grand Fleet in Scapa Flow and the tripartite declaration of war was announced.
I would imagine that merchant ships would be allowed passage, subject to an embargo on certain cargos. The embargo would be rigourously enforced by frequent stop-and-search operations by RNE patrol boats. The straits would be patrolled by anti-submarine vessels with orders to sink any unidentified submarine contacts.
Post commencement of hostilities, the Imperial Mediteranean Fleet would be akin to the Italian Fleet in WWII. Any negotiation of the straits would be highly perilous - and nigh on impossible for surface ships.
/bux
I would imagine that merchant ships would be allowed passage, subject to an embargo on certain cargos. The embargo would be rigourously enforced by frequent stop-and-search operations by RNE patrol boats. The straits would be patrolled by anti-submarine vessels with orders to sink any unidentified submarine contacts.
Post commencement of hostilities, the Imperial Mediteranean Fleet would be akin to the Italian Fleet in WWII. Any negotiation of the straits would be highly perilous - and nigh on impossible for surface ships.
/bux
I'm also assuming that a reciprocal arrangement would be in place across the English Channel.
Yes, I am up to something here. huh:
Yes, I am up to something here. huh:
But Pio, the Kaiser own *both* sides of the Channel now. The only thing west of Russia he doesn't own is Spain (and Portugal?) and Ireland.
He can own both sides of the channel, but the channel like the two canals are the major "shortcut" to everywhere.
If an invasion goes into Ireland, the Germans will bring their fleet out of the Baltic. From Gibralter, the channel is the shortest route to bottle them up, else doing the clockwise circuit around the British Isles gives the German navy maybe a weeks head start.
If an invasion goes into Ireland, the Germans will bring their fleet out of the Baltic. From Gibralter, the channel is the shortest route to bottle them up, else doing the clockwise circuit around the British Isles gives the German navy maybe a weeks head start.
I have some other questions.
The Russians would have had a very poor bargaining position in any peace negotiations with Imperial Germany. They would have no allies left and essentially would be on there own facing a victorious German war machine that was convinced of it's destiny. Don't forget Austro-Hungary would also wanted to have exacted revenge on their old enemy. I think the Russians would have come out of this very poorly, with only their skins it would seem. The Teutonic people have some natural connections with the Baltic states and I feel the Kaiser would have insisted on Latvia, Lithuainia, Estonia and Finland be added to the Empire at Russia's expense. St. Petersburg could remain Russian and allow them to retain access to the Baltic.
And what about those Austro-Hungarians? (name really rolls off your tongue doesn't it rolleyes: ). Did they just go quietly into the night? Still present, but totally overshadowed by mighty Germany?
The Spanish would have to be still neutral, as you stated. Interestingly enough, this is the time period of the historic Spanish Civil War 36-39. Spain did not participate in WWI and would have probably been left alone by the Germans. Spain is a tough and hostile country for outsiders to conquer, just ask Napoleon. Their history could have been only minimally effected by the events in Europe and followed actual history. If that were the case, the civil war in Spain could have already started on it's historic start of 7/17/36 (I think), or may have been delayed to some degree. This war was between the Fascists (the haves) and the Socialists (the have nots) (later taken over by the Communists). This situation could make for some very interesting possiblities for foreign intervention.
The Germans also would control most or all of the middle east, through Turkey. They even had some personnel in Iraq during the war.
Although the RNE has a stranglehold on sea traffic at Gibraltar during "peace time", they would have major trouble keeping the base supplied during war with German ships on both sides of the straits and in total command of the Med. Malta would be in really big trouble. Spain would be very reluctant to assist with a watchful and snarling wolf just next door.
In Africa, the Germans had been very proud of their colonies and had, surprisingly?, decided on the enlightened policy of treating their native peoples with respect and good management. They built schools and infrastructure that significantly elevated the living standards of the peoples in their states. This was in stark contrast to the methods the British, Italians, French, Spanish, Portugese and Belgians had employed to maintain control in their colonies. As a result they were very well thought of by the Africans, who willingly fought for them in the jungles with General von Lettow until the end of the war. The Germans would have insisted on the return of these colonies and most likely would have claimed the defeated nations portions of Africa as well.
What of the Japanese? They were still at war with the Germans. How would they have made peace? They and the Anzacs had seized numerous German controlled islands and the first rate port with naval facilities at Tsingtau. The Germans would have wanted those back as well.
All very, very interesting to speculate about.
But would someone explain to me how Singapore could have possibly been annexed by the American's in 1935? I just can't come up with a scenario for that one. hmmm:
Regards,
SeaWolf
The Russians would have had a very poor bargaining position in any peace negotiations with Imperial Germany. They would have no allies left and essentially would be on there own facing a victorious German war machine that was convinced of it's destiny. Don't forget Austro-Hungary would also wanted to have exacted revenge on their old enemy. I think the Russians would have come out of this very poorly, with only their skins it would seem. The Teutonic people have some natural connections with the Baltic states and I feel the Kaiser would have insisted on Latvia, Lithuainia, Estonia and Finland be added to the Empire at Russia's expense. St. Petersburg could remain Russian and allow them to retain access to the Baltic.
And what about those Austro-Hungarians? (name really rolls off your tongue doesn't it rolleyes: ). Did they just go quietly into the night? Still present, but totally overshadowed by mighty Germany?
The Spanish would have to be still neutral, as you stated. Interestingly enough, this is the time period of the historic Spanish Civil War 36-39. Spain did not participate in WWI and would have probably been left alone by the Germans. Spain is a tough and hostile country for outsiders to conquer, just ask Napoleon. Their history could have been only minimally effected by the events in Europe and followed actual history. If that were the case, the civil war in Spain could have already started on it's historic start of 7/17/36 (I think), or may have been delayed to some degree. This war was between the Fascists (the haves) and the Socialists (the have nots) (later taken over by the Communists). This situation could make for some very interesting possiblities for foreign intervention.
The Germans also would control most or all of the middle east, through Turkey. They even had some personnel in Iraq during the war.
Although the RNE has a stranglehold on sea traffic at Gibraltar during "peace time", they would have major trouble keeping the base supplied during war with German ships on both sides of the straits and in total command of the Med. Malta would be in really big trouble. Spain would be very reluctant to assist with a watchful and snarling wolf just next door.
In Africa, the Germans had been very proud of their colonies and had, surprisingly?, decided on the enlightened policy of treating their native peoples with respect and good management. They built schools and infrastructure that significantly elevated the living standards of the peoples in their states. This was in stark contrast to the methods the British, Italians, French, Spanish, Portugese and Belgians had employed to maintain control in their colonies. As a result they were very well thought of by the Africans, who willingly fought for them in the jungles with General von Lettow until the end of the war. The Germans would have insisted on the return of these colonies and most likely would have claimed the defeated nations portions of Africa as well.
What of the Japanese? They were still at war with the Germans. How would they have made peace? They and the Anzacs had seized numerous German controlled islands and the first rate port with naval facilities at Tsingtau. The Germans would have wanted those back as well.
All very, very interesting to speculate about.
But would someone explain to me how Singapore could have possibly been annexed by the American's in 1935? I just can't come up with a scenario for that one. hmmm:
Regards,
SeaWolf
I think we have to remember that due to the fact we are dealing with Imperial Germans, and not Nazi Germans, Fascisim probably never really took off the way it did in reality.The civil war in Spain could have already started on it's historic start of 7/17/36 (I think), or may have been delayed to some degree. This war was between the Fascists (the haves) and the Socialists (the have nots) (later taken over by the Communists). This situation could make for some very interesting possiblities for foreign intervention
Now I'm sure I'm at least misinformed/mistaken at best, and flat out wrong at worst, but I think that without Hitlers political and financial support as well as proving that fascisim could "work" as a form of goverenment (I mean it did pull Germany out of a heck of an economic slump) Fascist movements in Europe and around the world wouldn't have garnered nearly the amount of support that they did. At worst in this timeline they would be considered as an insignifigant right wing group.
Therefore there might be a Communist revolution in Spain, but I really doubt that there would be a strong Fascist movement as well.
As for the Russians, I don't think they would be in as much trouble as you might think. Remember that both sides took horrendous casulties during WWI, and I think after 4 years of war (and the costs, both monetary and in casulties), and conquering most of Europe both the German Army and the German public would be tired of fighting, yet satisfied with the results, and would have been content to leave the Russians alone at least for the time being. Since they had already pulled out of the war and were not seen as much of a threat, so long as they didn't start any trouble the Germans would leave well enough alone.
Now it was suggested in another thread that it would be interesting if Trotsky came to power after Lenins death rather then Stalin. This could have huge ramifications since Stalin truly shaped Communism in the USSR and around the world. Also on a more practical level since Trotsky probably wouldn't have "purged" most of the Armed Forces officer corp, and since there was no "non agression" pact between the two countries Russia probably would have been much better prepared to hold off the German Army. So depending on who's leading Russia the great Bear is probably ready and able to deal with the German Army by now.
I agree on the part about a mean russian war machine- if Stalin hadn't protected toadies like Bludenelley and Pavlov, the more intrepid generals like Zhukov (whose tactics were adopted by the less politically restricted WW2 germans) would have presented a more formidable foe to eastern expansion. Russia had the best tanks and AT guns of the between-wars period. That's why the Germans ended up using 88mm antiaircraft artillery cannon as point-blank AT cannon, and came up with heavies like the Panzer and Tiger in mid/late WW2.
Furthermore, as has previously been mentioned in discussion, Finland is hell. If the Finns didn't want A-H movements, swamps, frost, and snipers would be quite an impediment. After all, the really scary prototype sniper rifles like the M-24, P-26 Kiivari, and M-1939 were developed during the epoch in question expressly for the purpose of defending Finland from invasion.
And I pretty much think the world map is that germany controls a vertical strip of the world covering europe and Africa, while britain has a a vertical strip including Oz and asia, and the US holds north america, and ireland.
Wonder what Canadas' allegiance is?
Furthermore, as has previously been mentioned in discussion, Finland is hell. If the Finns didn't want A-H movements, swamps, frost, and snipers would be quite an impediment. After all, the really scary prototype sniper rifles like the M-24, P-26 Kiivari, and M-1939 were developed during the epoch in question expressly for the purpose of defending Finland from invasion.
And I pretty much think the world map is that germany controls a vertical strip of the world covering europe and Africa, while britain has a a vertical strip including Oz and asia, and the US holds north america, and ireland.
Wonder what Canadas' allegiance is?
This came up before and this was East's response:Wonder what Canadas' allegiance is?
So I think that there is definitely some support for the LFN, but it seems that there is also support for the IGN, and let us not forget that with Canada acting as a possible haven/staging ground for both of their enemies, this makes us a prime target for "pacification" by the US, especially if a Civil War breaks out.East Posted on: Jul 20 2004, 05:59 PM
Very interesting analysis, Quebec is indeed LFN biased, but BC is staunchly IGN/Britain - loyalty to the homeland, not the King necessarily. LFN is also not strong enough to keep USA out. Resulting arguments mean Civil War in Canada.
The biggest reason I can give for the US not invading is that due to the massive size of Canada, and the fact that the "natives" >:( would not take kindly to being invaded, it would take a huge occupation force to keep the peace, and these troops would probably be better spent protecting other US intrests abroad. So they could invade Canada but it would cost them territories around the globe.
What some guy thinks of what happened during the civil war/after effects
Russia, politically unstable and fighting the war alone, goes for peace conditions with Germany/Austria Hungaria. In the end the Czar is still in power, but Russia is a puppet state of Germany and has no great military. Austria-Hungaria is unified with Germany, expanding the german empire. The ottomans are still an independent power, but are another puppet regeime of the Germans. The ottomans have now a great influence in north african area, but they themselfs are controlled by the Germans. The Suez is under control of the ottomans I would guess, since a German victory means an all-out victory for central powers. The ottomans expand from Bulgaria to Western India and probally control Georgia and other areas around the black sea to (forgets name of sea due east...caspian? Blah, i forgot...) The united states, being the power in the Americas and with Britain on the fall, probally took canada away and have to maintain a garrison there, or they have canada as a semi-puppet state/friendly neighbor who would not war with them. Mexico is probally another US Puppet state under political but not military control by the US. Spain probally already had their civil war, and the Germans probally helped the Republican side, leading them to victory. Norway and Sweeden are independent but under tight control by Germany, who needs them for their import/export potential. Switzerland is neutral still, and italy is still there but under increasing control by germany as the years go on.
/Just what I think might happen, haven't read anything but up to the churchill letter on the game's history page. Tell me how wrong or right I am please?
Russia, politically unstable and fighting the war alone, goes for peace conditions with Germany/Austria Hungaria. In the end the Czar is still in power, but Russia is a puppet state of Germany and has no great military. Austria-Hungaria is unified with Germany, expanding the german empire. The ottomans are still an independent power, but are another puppet regeime of the Germans. The ottomans have now a great influence in north african area, but they themselfs are controlled by the Germans. The Suez is under control of the ottomans I would guess, since a German victory means an all-out victory for central powers. The ottomans expand from Bulgaria to Western India and probally control Georgia and other areas around the black sea to (forgets name of sea due east...caspian? Blah, i forgot...) The united states, being the power in the Americas and with Britain on the fall, probally took canada away and have to maintain a garrison there, or they have canada as a semi-puppet state/friendly neighbor who would not war with them. Mexico is probally another US Puppet state under political but not military control by the US. Spain probally already had their civil war, and the Germans probally helped the Republican side, leading them to victory. Norway and Sweeden are independent but under tight control by Germany, who needs them for their import/export potential. Switzerland is neutral still, and italy is still there but under increasing control by germany as the years go on.
/Just what I think might happen, haven't read anything but up to the churchill letter on the game's history page. Tell me how wrong or right I am please?