From: Lt.Wolf
To: Ranger6
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:00 am
Subject: Re: tutoring
Well to be honest i am not entirely sure what you want to do or expect from us. Are you wanting to recreate the model? Cockpit model? Realistic flight model, insert the aircraft with a new slot, adjust the existing Avenger, rework its weapons? I doubt you will find a modder on this site who would be willing to "tutor" you in the complex art of IL-2 Modding, this is for a number of reasons, (1) We have to limit who knows how to change FMs to a small amount of people, (2) Use of our converters or others to get it working, it like a competitive edge, always worried others may walk away once they taken what they want and they have in the past. Self preservation. We have helped others in the past and continue to do so. Finally the main reason, its coming up Christmas, people are busy with their own projects and life and cannot spare time to help some one with such a huge task.
However i am willing to help you where i can. If provided with enough research from numerous sources to add legitimacy to the performance and loadouts, preferably pilots notes. I can put the Avenger as it is, into the game as a new slot aircraft with classfiles, FM and Weapons. Other than that i cannot do much if any 3D modelling. I can also do sounds. FMs, Sounds, Limited Classfile work and some other. Can you let me know exactly what you want to do right down to what colour the bolts are and what you expect from me or the team? Not being nasty here, my wording may alter the tone but i am happy to help. I have been asked if i would do this project by the guys on our team as they have been asked.
(I have not replied yet) I want your input on this as well... but
1 the flight model is WRONG,
2 power to weight ratio in aircraft in sim is OFF so bad ya have all that left torque
3 The cockpit and gunsite reticle is OFF.
4. The browning m2hbs on ALL aircraft for the alies IS OFF.
5. Rear gun turret is off, (IE amount it can depress and its is oblique gun movement, From: Lt.Wolf
I dont get these people at all Im kinda p----- off....No IM real p----- at the arrogance and sheer BS. BUt i wont let the pricks deter me.
Take to the skies
By Air
Air Marshal Command
MCVG-2 Command Room
MCVG-2 Command Room
Post a replyWhat am I supposed to say to this, BOSTI GOS, RINO HELP ME HERE
7 posts
Ranger.......
We will formulate a response. The current TBM-3 is ate up and needs some adjustment. We need to collect our thoughts first and then press forward. First of all, we need to know who we are interacting with and their background with this sim. Any ideas and intell anyone ???
We will formulate a response. The current TBM-3 is ate up and needs some adjustment. We need to collect our thoughts first and then press forward. First of all, we need to know who we are interacting with and their background with this sim. Any ideas and intell anyone ???
Okay - Now I am the moderate guy here.... I am going to say my tenpeneth with the sure and safe knowledge that non of you will take offense at what I have to say.
Firstly, I can see EXACTLY what this chap Wolf is on about. It is totally clear to me and it is absolutely the response I was expecting - particularly the part about allowing all their hard earned experience being taken on by others and then being used in competition against them. I am not in the least suggesting that you, Ranger, would do this but I am quiet sure it has happened to them in the past causing the reticence you are experiencing from them.
Secondly, what do we really want. Having listened to you, Ranger, I am yet to be convinced that we have the level of detail required to provide the techincal information required to create an accurate flight model. This isnt something you can just have a go at and try out. It has to come from extensive flight performance data at a great depth than found in a pilots notes manual. I would expect teh least being original flight trials data as a minimum.
Thirdly, we do need 3D modeling as we require a completely new cockpit at least. This means getting into a cokpit and taking very accurate measurements of absolutely everything in that cockpiut and its position to everything else. Original techincal drawings are a minimum or it means Ranger spending hours upon hours in the musuem one measureing everything. Fro a starter, Ranger, find something immovable as a datunm and measure relative to it, also be CERTAIN of wher the Design Eye Height is all aircraft have one. That allows everything to be placed in the correct view position. Also, within the modelling process is the damage model - The what exactly happens when any particular part of the aircraft is hit and the division of those parts...!!!!!!!!
Fouthly, we do not have sounds - Again solveable, but they need to be digitally recorded properly and for all modes of flight - there are litterally hundreds of these includiung for instance the sound and rate of the engine accelerating... ETC ETC ETC
Fifth, Class Files - I am not totally sure what these do but I beleive they allow the aircraft to fit into the game as a completely new item. This is the only real way of achieveing the qualilty result you are looking for Ranger.
Overall, I would suggest that this is at a bare minimum a year to 18 month project to a completely experienced 3D modeller and is way beyond our capability. I didnt what to dampen Rangers enthusiasm but I really think the best way forward is to work with what we have and try to enjoy it.
As for Lt Wolf, clearly this request of Ranger's has been passed to him and you have received the bluntly honest response. There is NOTHING wrong with his reply, it covers all the salient points and is looking for us to provided the necessary detail for him to even START helping us with such a project. If we do not have that level of detail (or even understand what he is asking) then we are not in the least ready for his help.
This is not a short post and I have spent the time to think this through... Please do not be offended. You asked for my opinion and you have it.... Sorry....
Gos
Firstly, I can see EXACTLY what this chap Wolf is on about. It is totally clear to me and it is absolutely the response I was expecting - particularly the part about allowing all their hard earned experience being taken on by others and then being used in competition against them. I am not in the least suggesting that you, Ranger, would do this but I am quiet sure it has happened to them in the past causing the reticence you are experiencing from them.
Secondly, what do we really want. Having listened to you, Ranger, I am yet to be convinced that we have the level of detail required to provide the techincal information required to create an accurate flight model. This isnt something you can just have a go at and try out. It has to come from extensive flight performance data at a great depth than found in a pilots notes manual. I would expect teh least being original flight trials data as a minimum.
Thirdly, we do need 3D modeling as we require a completely new cockpit at least. This means getting into a cokpit and taking very accurate measurements of absolutely everything in that cockpiut and its position to everything else. Original techincal drawings are a minimum or it means Ranger spending hours upon hours in the musuem one measureing everything. Fro a starter, Ranger, find something immovable as a datunm and measure relative to it, also be CERTAIN of wher the Design Eye Height is all aircraft have one. That allows everything to be placed in the correct view position. Also, within the modelling process is the damage model - The what exactly happens when any particular part of the aircraft is hit and the division of those parts...!!!!!!!!
Fouthly, we do not have sounds - Again solveable, but they need to be digitally recorded properly and for all modes of flight - there are litterally hundreds of these includiung for instance the sound and rate of the engine accelerating... ETC ETC ETC
Fifth, Class Files - I am not totally sure what these do but I beleive they allow the aircraft to fit into the game as a completely new item. This is the only real way of achieveing the qualilty result you are looking for Ranger.
Overall, I would suggest that this is at a bare minimum a year to 18 month project to a completely experienced 3D modeller and is way beyond our capability. I didnt what to dampen Rangers enthusiasm but I really think the best way forward is to work with what we have and try to enjoy it.
As for Lt Wolf, clearly this request of Ranger's has been passed to him and you have received the bluntly honest response. There is NOTHING wrong with his reply, it covers all the salient points and is looking for us to provided the necessary detail for him to even START helping us with such a project. If we do not have that level of detail (or even understand what he is asking) then we are not in the least ready for his help.
This is not a short post and I have spent the time to think this through... Please do not be offended. You asked for my opinion and you have it.... Sorry....
Gos
~S~
Over the last three days, we have had some positive reactions from the AAA community regarding the TBM-3 and it would appear now that the actual person who is working on the TBM-3 flight model is being receptive to the historical flight data being provided by a reproduced TBM-3 flight manual as well as some historical weapons accuracy data as well.
Relevant information has been passed between Ranger to the actual individual running the modding aspects and testing with "Lt. Wolf" having been the Gate Keeper to see what Rangers initial interest was in the FM etc to start. Perhaps a test was being conducted to gauge Rangers sincereity on this issue by the AAA regarding the TBM's FM ???
Over the last three days, we have had some positive reactions from the AAA community regarding the TBM-3 and it would appear now that the actual person who is working on the TBM-3 flight model is being receptive to the historical flight data being provided by a reproduced TBM-3 flight manual as well as some historical weapons accuracy data as well.
Relevant information has been passed between Ranger to the actual individual running the modding aspects and testing with "Lt. Wolf" having been the Gate Keeper to see what Rangers initial interest was in the FM etc to start. Perhaps a test was being conducted to gauge Rangers sincereity on this issue by the AAA regarding the TBM's FM ???
OK fine thanx Gos i give up... Guess Im just Not an AVIATOR or my limited programming skills, make ME lacking as far as this little project. Gee maybe if More Sim enthusiats at LEAST TRIED to make the aircraft and Weapons a bit more accurate we wouldnt have MAJOR FLAWS.... Maybe ill make a first person shooter. I know about that crap, Bah Im not a programmer or a sound engineer, Find ill just sit around and whine about crappy flight models and inaccuracies and weapons effects... God this game irks me so damm bad its unreal at times.
Now as far as My rebuttal..
Gee GOS did you know IM in touch with a PILOT/OWNER of a TBM-3 AVENGER at the Indiana Air Museaum, WHO HAS offered to Show me EVERYTHING about his aircraft( GUESS THAT SIZEABLE DONATION YOURS TRULY MADE TO THE ORGANIZATION LAST YEAR CARRIED SOME WEIGHT) AND OFFERED TO TAKE MYSELF AND MY SON UP IN THE PLANE. GEE i have a feeling he would let me take mesurments till the COWS came home. HE has alos offered ME Copies of ALL the revelent maintenance and Handbooks and ORDINANCE data FOR THIS aircraft. GEE I wonder if HED LET ME get a MIC and record the dengines, ( I ALSO ASKED AND HE DIDNT MIND FYI)
Do you realize I HAVE A COPY OF 3DS AUTODESK MAX software which is the same Modelling software Oleg used in the making of this game.
DO you realize Ive basicly ENROLLED in the SIMULATION PROGRAMMING AND DESIGN COURSE at DEVRY TECHNICAL school here IN INDIANPOLIS. AND I START IN FEBRUARY. (thank god I got some of MY GI BILL MONEY.)
AS far as TIME come 29 jan Ill BE RETIRED. ILL HAVE MORE TIME THEN I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH....
As far as Weapons, Gos you know aviation I KNOW WEAPONS.. I KNOW THAT M2HB BROWNING .50 caliber machine gun Like the back of MY HAND litterally... I KNOW WHAT IT CAN AND CANT DO. IVE USED IT IN COMBAT not IN SOME DAMM SIM. IVE SPOKEN to ACTUAL PILOTS who used it IN ANGER in the air and THEY agree with My ascertation that the MA DEUCE IS A KILLER. IT WHOULD SHRED AND LIGHT AFIRE most Jap planes with a few bursts. not like the STEADY POUNDING ya gotta use on say Bettys AND i dont care what convergence your guns are set too, from 100 meters THat Plane should DIE. PERIOD. ANd not take 50 bursts into it either. I also Know about the SOVIET .51 caliber MG in the DSHK HMG.. Ive fired them ANd been on the reciving end a few times.
ALSO DO you realize MOSTof the PEOPLE MODDING THESE PLANES HAVENT A DAMM CLUE THE ACTUAL ENGINES OF THESE PLANES. THE LEAD MODDER MOOOFLY IN THE PROJECT IS A FRIGGIN CHEMICAL ENGINEERING STUDENT IN SCOTLAND. HE HADNT A CLUE WHAT TYPE OF ENGINE AND HE DIDNT SPEND 4 MINUTES CHECKING ONLINE. THEY WANTED TO THROW A HELLCAT COCKPIT INTO IT. THE ONLY THING THE TBM AND HELL KITTY SHARE IN COMMON IN THE PIT IS THE MARK 8 GUNSITE.
As far as My use of the pilots Handbook Let me Tell ya a little something I HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN HISTORY.( PRETTY AMAZING A DUMB GRUNT WITH DYSLECSIA COULD DO THAT HUH) OK. IM ALL ABOUT SOURCES AND REFERENCES AND THOROUGHNESS. DO YOU THINK ID NOT GET THE RIGHT INFO FOR THE JOB OR ONLY RELY ON ONE SOURCE, GIVE ME SOME CREDIT HERE.
Thanx for checking with me as far as ALL ive done concerning this project and YOUR vote of CONFIDENCE , and GOS HELL YES IM OFFENDED. And if YOU OR anyone else in the command staff want me out ot TOW OR MCVG-2 DUE TO MY POST THATS FINE. IM ABOUT FED UP WITH THE IL-2 COMMUNITY. Wont be the first time MY big mouth got me booted from a squadron, Except this time I WONT come back to the game. Or Join a sqaudron. For me this sqaud is the LAST CHANCE RANCH so to speak. And gos I some times fly off the handle. (GEE MAYBE MY NERVES ARE A BIT FRAYED FROM TOO MANY DEPLOYMENTS LOL) But I know when im being Condescendid too. and BLOWN OFF. IM gonna let ya in on a little secret. I dont give up easily AT ALLL if i did I would have given up on this sim and Done something productive over a year ago. IM hardheaded. And Im tenacious.... and I beleive in a simple CREED. THE RANGER CREED, WHICH IN PART READS... "SURRENDER IS NOT A RANGER WORD" Google the Creed Sometime and maybe you'll Gain some Insight into what Makes ME Tick.
I didnt ask for OPINIONS I ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.........
Now as far as My rebuttal..
Gee GOS did you know IM in touch with a PILOT/OWNER of a TBM-3 AVENGER at the Indiana Air Museaum, WHO HAS offered to Show me EVERYTHING about his aircraft( GUESS THAT SIZEABLE DONATION YOURS TRULY MADE TO THE ORGANIZATION LAST YEAR CARRIED SOME WEIGHT) AND OFFERED TO TAKE MYSELF AND MY SON UP IN THE PLANE. GEE i have a feeling he would let me take mesurments till the COWS came home. HE has alos offered ME Copies of ALL the revelent maintenance and Handbooks and ORDINANCE data FOR THIS aircraft. GEE I wonder if HED LET ME get a MIC and record the dengines, ( I ALSO ASKED AND HE DIDNT MIND FYI)
Do you realize I HAVE A COPY OF 3DS AUTODESK MAX software which is the same Modelling software Oleg used in the making of this game.
DO you realize Ive basicly ENROLLED in the SIMULATION PROGRAMMING AND DESIGN COURSE at DEVRY TECHNICAL school here IN INDIANPOLIS. AND I START IN FEBRUARY. (thank god I got some of MY GI BILL MONEY.)
AS far as TIME come 29 jan Ill BE RETIRED. ILL HAVE MORE TIME THEN I KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH....
As far as Weapons, Gos you know aviation I KNOW WEAPONS.. I KNOW THAT M2HB BROWNING .50 caliber machine gun Like the back of MY HAND litterally... I KNOW WHAT IT CAN AND CANT DO. IVE USED IT IN COMBAT not IN SOME DAMM SIM. IVE SPOKEN to ACTUAL PILOTS who used it IN ANGER in the air and THEY agree with My ascertation that the MA DEUCE IS A KILLER. IT WHOULD SHRED AND LIGHT AFIRE most Jap planes with a few bursts. not like the STEADY POUNDING ya gotta use on say Bettys AND i dont care what convergence your guns are set too, from 100 meters THat Plane should DIE. PERIOD. ANd not take 50 bursts into it either. I also Know about the SOVIET .51 caliber MG in the DSHK HMG.. Ive fired them ANd been on the reciving end a few times.
ALSO DO you realize MOSTof the PEOPLE MODDING THESE PLANES HAVENT A DAMM CLUE THE ACTUAL ENGINES OF THESE PLANES. THE LEAD MODDER MOOOFLY IN THE PROJECT IS A FRIGGIN CHEMICAL ENGINEERING STUDENT IN SCOTLAND. HE HADNT A CLUE WHAT TYPE OF ENGINE AND HE DIDNT SPEND 4 MINUTES CHECKING ONLINE. THEY WANTED TO THROW A HELLCAT COCKPIT INTO IT. THE ONLY THING THE TBM AND HELL KITTY SHARE IN COMMON IN THE PIT IS THE MARK 8 GUNSITE.
As far as My use of the pilots Handbook Let me Tell ya a little something I HAVE A MASTERS DEGREE IN HISTORY.( PRETTY AMAZING A DUMB GRUNT WITH DYSLECSIA COULD DO THAT HUH) OK. IM ALL ABOUT SOURCES AND REFERENCES AND THOROUGHNESS. DO YOU THINK ID NOT GET THE RIGHT INFO FOR THE JOB OR ONLY RELY ON ONE SOURCE, GIVE ME SOME CREDIT HERE.
Thanx for checking with me as far as ALL ive done concerning this project and YOUR vote of CONFIDENCE , and GOS HELL YES IM OFFENDED. And if YOU OR anyone else in the command staff want me out ot TOW OR MCVG-2 DUE TO MY POST THATS FINE. IM ABOUT FED UP WITH THE IL-2 COMMUNITY. Wont be the first time MY big mouth got me booted from a squadron, Except this time I WONT come back to the game. Or Join a sqaudron. For me this sqaud is the LAST CHANCE RANCH so to speak. And gos I some times fly off the handle. (GEE MAYBE MY NERVES ARE A BIT FRAYED FROM TOO MANY DEPLOYMENTS LOL) But I know when im being Condescendid too. and BLOWN OFF. IM gonna let ya in on a little secret. I dont give up easily AT ALLL if i did I would have given up on this sim and Done something productive over a year ago. IM hardheaded. And Im tenacious.... and I beleive in a simple CREED. THE RANGER CREED, WHICH IN PART READS... "SURRENDER IS NOT A RANGER WORD" Google the Creed Sometime and maybe you'll Gain some Insight into what Makes ME Tick.
I didnt ask for OPINIONS I ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.........
Hmmm interesting post there, Ranger
If you don't want me as your friend, then you are going to have to try alot harder than that... The first line of my post was very important and I think you may have missed it. I am being your friend.... To be a friend it is important to be honest and my post is my honest opinion of what you are taking on...
You seemed to express that you didnt understand what Lt Wolf was on about - I was trying to explain what he meant.
You seemed annoyed that he had given you a bit of a negative response - I was explaining why I could see that his previous experiences may have lead to that kind of response.
You wanted help - I was trying to explain the kind of data that would need to be gatherd to complete the task to the level that I know you would want to achieve.
I am aware that you have access to a TBM - How much access I had no idea - Clearly, you seem to have unlimited access, which is excellent. I hope I have managed to give you a clear idea as to the level of detail that would be required to progress this project and the extensive time it will take to complete to a suitable level... Retiring would certainly be the only way I would wish to even consider such a project.
With the probable arrival of Battle of Britain - Storm of War in about a year, I just hope that your efforts (which will have been very extensive I am sure) will be fully appreciated by what's left of the IL2 community.... It is possible that a significant proportion of the community will have moved on, leaving just the die hards like me to appreciate your efforts...
....
On other areas you touched...
You do use alot of capitals - I have not made the mistake of assuming you are shouting at me and have asseumed that with the speed of typing that the Caps lock has just got left on... I do that all the time and have to back track often....
You make a suggestion that you would be thrown out of Tidesofwar.net - I have no idea of where you are coming from or what relevance this has with Modding a TBM. No-one is suggesting that you are not fully welcome at tidesofwar, as is everyone... Those that leave do so at their own choosing... and often are welcomed back at a later date... You are, and always will be, welcome here....
It does seem that if anyone expresses even the slightest opinions that you peceive as negative, you set off on a diatribe of rebuke. Is it really needed? Thankfully, I can see the good man through it....
You mention about deployments - well there does seem to be alot of pain there somewhere that will probably take a few years to dissipate judging by a few of my own mates I know, give yourself the time....
........
So, my friend, I expressed my honest opinion in an effort to help you. I wouldn't be much of a friend if I didnt express my honest opinion, would I?
I hope that you ignore the negative parts of my advice and go on to complete this work as it was a travisty that the game didnt include the Avenger in the first place, but the litigation Maddox sufferd at the hands of a narrow minded Northrop Grumman would have been a deciding factor in leaving it out I suspect.
All the best with the project and if you need me to do a little research for you in our Fleet Air Arm Museum, which is on my airstation, just ask. I am afraid that my time will be much more limited than your though, but I will do my best... Good luck...
Gos
If you don't want me as your friend, then you are going to have to try alot harder than that... The first line of my post was very important and I think you may have missed it. I am being your friend.... To be a friend it is important to be honest and my post is my honest opinion of what you are taking on...
You seemed to express that you didnt understand what Lt Wolf was on about - I was trying to explain what he meant.
You seemed annoyed that he had given you a bit of a negative response - I was explaining why I could see that his previous experiences may have lead to that kind of response.
You wanted help - I was trying to explain the kind of data that would need to be gatherd to complete the task to the level that I know you would want to achieve.
I am aware that you have access to a TBM - How much access I had no idea - Clearly, you seem to have unlimited access, which is excellent. I hope I have managed to give you a clear idea as to the level of detail that would be required to progress this project and the extensive time it will take to complete to a suitable level... Retiring would certainly be the only way I would wish to even consider such a project.
With the probable arrival of Battle of Britain - Storm of War in about a year, I just hope that your efforts (which will have been very extensive I am sure) will be fully appreciated by what's left of the IL2 community.... It is possible that a significant proportion of the community will have moved on, leaving just the die hards like me to appreciate your efforts...
....
On other areas you touched...
You do use alot of capitals - I have not made the mistake of assuming you are shouting at me and have asseumed that with the speed of typing that the Caps lock has just got left on... I do that all the time and have to back track often....
You make a suggestion that you would be thrown out of Tidesofwar.net - I have no idea of where you are coming from or what relevance this has with Modding a TBM. No-one is suggesting that you are not fully welcome at tidesofwar, as is everyone... Those that leave do so at their own choosing... and often are welcomed back at a later date... You are, and always will be, welcome here....
It does seem that if anyone expresses even the slightest opinions that you peceive as negative, you set off on a diatribe of rebuke. Is it really needed? Thankfully, I can see the good man through it....
You mention about deployments - well there does seem to be alot of pain there somewhere that will probably take a few years to dissipate judging by a few of my own mates I know, give yourself the time....
........
So, my friend, I expressed my honest opinion in an effort to help you. I wouldn't be much of a friend if I didnt express my honest opinion, would I?
I hope that you ignore the negative parts of my advice and go on to complete this work as it was a travisty that the game didnt include the Avenger in the first place, but the litigation Maddox sufferd at the hands of a narrow minded Northrop Grumman would have been a deciding factor in leaving it out I suspect.
All the best with the project and if you need me to do a little research for you in our Fleet Air Arm Museum, which is on my airstation, just ask. I am afraid that my time will be much more limited than your though, but I will do my best... Good luck...
Gos
Gos Ill take ANY help your willing and able to give... I consider this project My weird way of paying respect to the BRAVE aircrews who fought and died in this aircraft. This is personal for me... (OH FYI I donated 5 thousand USD to this pilots resoration project last year on his aveneger thats why i have carte blanche access.. I didnt ask for any access other then to see it fly back last summer when I made my donation... I made my donation So my son and other people would be able to see and hear and feel a piece of history.) So i figure i probably paid for a propeller. The reason i was so upset is all the STONE walls ive ran into. (OH FYI this guy can get me all the flight DATA on the side from Grumman north american which was Helping him with his resroration)> you let me KNOW EXACTLY what you feel i would need for my project and Ill get it. Im not a programmer or a pilot. I just am tired of shoddy planes and armorments
And gos trust me I will be utilizing your expertise.
And gos trust me I will be utilizing your expertise.