Hi guys,
i know i'm not exactly an active member of FI yet (the way to lvl 70 is long...) but i could really use your help. so if you got a minute: read on...
I'm currently doing a paper on WoW for a class called popular culture and part of it is doing some reception research (in other words; asking what other people think of it). for this i need your help. You can read all about it here -> http://worldofwarcraftresearch.freeforums....topic.php?p=2#2
You can also send me a mail if you don't want to register on the freeforum site : eva.brarens@hotmail.com
Or leave a comment here...
thanks!
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Post a replyHelp wanted with WoW reception research
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Well, that's an interesting one.
To start with Everquest (aka Evercrack) was the 1st hugely popular MMORPG. But it was still niche, it took a nerd to find it (at least until its autumn years when Sony tried to make it more "accessible" to the masses).
WoW is a 2nd generation MMORPG. What does that mean? Well, other than prettier graphics, it means that they went for a new market - to generalise, they went for "nerds who were un-nerdy enough to still be able to get a girlfriend, and then get the girlfriend hooked too". Yes, my furry friends, that is the genius about Blizzard, they managed to bridge that gap: From EverQuest (all about gear) to SHOPPING (all women love).
/bux
To start with Everquest (aka Evercrack) was the 1st hugely popular MMORPG. But it was still niche, it took a nerd to find it (at least until its autumn years when Sony tried to make it more "accessible" to the masses).
WoW is a 2nd generation MMORPG. What does that mean? Well, other than prettier graphics, it means that they went for a new market - to generalise, they went for "nerds who were un-nerdy enough to still be able to get a girlfriend, and then get the girlfriend hooked too". Yes, my furry friends, that is the genius about Blizzard, they managed to bridge that gap: From EverQuest (all about gear) to SHOPPING (all women love).
/bux
thanks for replying Buxton!
and i do believe you have a point. i've read some articles on WoW and there are many authors who believe that 'casual' gaming is part of WoW's huge appeal.
Things are changing but female gamers have long been a very small group in the gaming world. personally it think that extreme violence and first person games scared off most girls in the beginning (i never was too fond of Doom either tho i played it): they prefer social interaction and tactics (yes gentlemen: tactics!) over shooters and the likes. (not that all girls dislike shooters: the younger generation seems to be different)
But i think that there are also a lot of other, casual players in WoW: people that don't have super fast reflexes, people who don't like playing on their own..etc Also the fact that it's easy to play (i mean: you don't have a hard time figuring out how the controls work and so on) and doesn't require a super 7331-computer certainly helps a lot.
and i do believe you have a point. i've read some articles on WoW and there are many authors who believe that 'casual' gaming is part of WoW's huge appeal.
Things are changing but female gamers have long been a very small group in the gaming world. personally it think that extreme violence and first person games scared off most girls in the beginning (i never was too fond of Doom either tho i played it): they prefer social interaction and tactics (yes gentlemen: tactics!) over shooters and the likes. (not that all girls dislike shooters: the younger generation seems to be different)
But i think that there are also a lot of other, casual players in WoW: people that don't have super fast reflexes, people who don't like playing on their own..etc Also the fact that it's easy to play (i mean: you don't have a hard time figuring out how the controls work and so on) and doesn't require a super 7331-computer certainly helps a lot.
filled it in and replied on your forum
Indeed, nice topic for research...
The general reports on TV or other media concerning WoW or MMORPG's is very concentrated on the addiction / violence provoking side of it ,but if you think about the 9 million players the addiction/violence part is just a deviation of an immense culture.So would be interesting to see how other players see the game or games like Wow and what they mean to them.
I started on MMORPG's as soon as I heard/read about them...I was fascinated and still am by the immense social interaction this kind of gaming offers.The possibility to play a game and interact socialy has a huge appeal for me.And with my soft spot for fantasy stuff I get hooked pretty fast
.
First game I played was Asherons Call from Microsoft and I was amazed by the size of the virtual world and the possibilities for free roaming in comparison to other video games at the time ,where you always had to follow beaten paths.I met a guy in there who had actualy gotten his character up to one of the higher levels and learned about the games mechanics ,tanks/dps/healers, etc ..And found a whole other dimension to a leveling game I did not see before.Also the actual help he gave me was a experience you would not find in any other games "help" function.The basic "good samaritan" act becomes a part of the game experience.
Then I had a dive into Planetside a SciFi MMORPG from Sony (,mostly because I found a free pass for a few weeks...,hey I am dutch...),there I saw how large groups of people (over 30) had to work together to achieve an objective again opening up another aspect in these games I enjoy.
Then came WoW ,Reddevil got a free beta key from his online warcraft endevours and we shared the account leveling a warrior called Reddevil .The easy acces and playability was astonishing and we soon became hooked.We made it till level 42 before the game came on the market....the following characters and adventures are WoW history ...,he,he
So now I have been playing for close to 3 years and I have found a balance between the game life and RL.Must say that was a struggle at the start as the addictive qualities of the game do set in if you cant set rules for yourself....
I have two characters I concentrate on ,and enjoy different parts of the game (PVP,Raiding,grinding) with each and find it a welcome distraction from my RL activities.
I am a general manager and personel officer for a DIY store with around 75 people on the payroll so the game offers me a possibilty to ?roleplay? but put in my own character and experiences into the group (guild) in wich I play a part as do the other people I play with.The people that surround me are happy for me to have something wich keeps me busy and distracts me outside my circle people usualy frown apon the fact that a 36 year old cant seem to grow up enough to stop ?playing games?...but then again I dont realy care for growing up much guess thats what will keep me young at heart ,he,he
The downside of the game is ,the timeconsuming part to actualy get any improvement after leveling is done,can get quite disheartening... ,and the speed at wich the game itself evolves.The first expansion came as we were just starting to get a good raiding thing going,and I see the same thing happening coming next expansion.
And ?old? content is rarely revisited as there is always something else that takes priority...
Lol, also thought about some side effects/topics of MMORPG?s but they have nothing to do with me ,other then that they have my interest.Maybe you would like to have a look :
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine...;pagewanted=all
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliandibbell...57594279649151/
But this reply is getting far to long as it is....,soz Aylun dont like questionaires....
Koren
The general reports on TV or other media concerning WoW or MMORPG's is very concentrated on the addiction / violence provoking side of it ,but if you think about the 9 million players the addiction/violence part is just a deviation of an immense culture.So would be interesting to see how other players see the game or games like Wow and what they mean to them.
I started on MMORPG's as soon as I heard/read about them...I was fascinated and still am by the immense social interaction this kind of gaming offers.The possibility to play a game and interact socialy has a huge appeal for me.And with my soft spot for fantasy stuff I get hooked pretty fast
.First game I played was Asherons Call from Microsoft and I was amazed by the size of the virtual world and the possibilities for free roaming in comparison to other video games at the time ,where you always had to follow beaten paths.I met a guy in there who had actualy gotten his character up to one of the higher levels and learned about the games mechanics ,tanks/dps/healers, etc ..And found a whole other dimension to a leveling game I did not see before.Also the actual help he gave me was a experience you would not find in any other games "help" function.The basic "good samaritan" act becomes a part of the game experience.
Then I had a dive into Planetside a SciFi MMORPG from Sony (,mostly because I found a free pass for a few weeks...,hey I am dutch...),there I saw how large groups of people (over 30) had to work together to achieve an objective again opening up another aspect in these games I enjoy.
Then came WoW ,Reddevil got a free beta key from his online warcraft endevours and we shared the account leveling a warrior called Reddevil
.The easy acces and playability was astonishing and we soon became hooked.We made it till level 42 before the game came on the market....the following characters and adventures are WoW history ...,he,heSo now I have been playing for close to 3 years and I have found a balance between the game life and RL.Must say that was a struggle at the start as the addictive qualities of the game do set in if you cant set rules for yourself....
I have two characters I concentrate on ,and enjoy different parts of the game (PVP,Raiding,grinding) with each and find it a welcome distraction from my RL activities.
I am a general manager and personel officer for a DIY store with around 75 people on the payroll so the game offers me a possibilty to ?roleplay? but put in my own character and experiences into the group (guild) in wich I play a part as do the other people I play with.The people that surround me are happy for me to have something wich keeps me busy and distracts me outside my circle people usualy frown apon the fact that a 36 year old cant seem to grow up enough to stop ?playing games?
...but then again I dont realy care for growing up much guess thats what will keep me young at heart ,he,heThe downside of the game is ,the timeconsuming part to actualy get any improvement after leveling is done,can get quite disheartening... ,and the speed at wich the game itself evolves.The first expansion came as we were just starting to get a good raiding thing going,and I see the same thing happening coming next expansion.
And ?old? content is rarely revisited as there is always something else that takes priority...
Lol, also thought about some side effects/topics of MMORPG?s but they have nothing to do with me ,other then that they have my interest.Maybe you would like to have a look :
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine...;pagewanted=all
http://www.flickr.com/photos/juliandibbell...57594279649151/
But this reply is getting far to long as it is....,soz Aylun dont like questionaires....
Koren
Another short answer 
General information:
- age/gender/current occupation: 36, male, Futures researcher/Foresight expert/Urban policy expert
- Do you play WoW? Yes. 2 years and 3-4 months or so.
- Do you play other games? Wow is currently the only mmorpg that I play due to the fact that they tend to be very time consuming and it is rather impossible to do anything meaningfull in more than one at the same time. Before wow I used to play Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) mmorpg. Before that my mmorpg history reaches well back to very early 90?s and the ASCII based MUD?s.
Besides mmorpgs I tend to play either games that have a good/immersive storyline (favourites would be Fallout 1&2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate, Knigths of the old republic), turn based strategy/tactical game s(Combat Mis-sion 2, Civilization, Master of Orion) and occasionaly multiplayer 1st person shooters (Battlefiels).
Wow specific questions:
- How often do you play? (game time over ten minutes). 4 times a week. Depends a bit on realf life work load.
- What do you specifically like about WoW? (general features). Community, raiding, well made quests.
- What do you dislike about WoW? (general features) It lacks many of the ?sand box? elements that games like for example Star Wars Galaxies had. These include player housing, guild houses, possibility to change the hair/skin colour and tattoos on characters, unique or modifyiable clothing, art items, furniture etc. In other words I miss everythign that could make the characters played and the social environment more unique (instead of half a dozen stereotype racial looks and everyone wearing similar looking gear). I also thing that the crafting system is over simplistic and poor when compared to many others.
- How is your view on the social interaction in WoW? Surprisingly good, especially if you find a good guild. And to be honest the community is the main thing that keeps me logging online out side raid times. On the other hand wow doesn?t really support community forming or social playing too well (player housing, villages, guild houses etc. would be a really welcome addition). Also the chat channel system could use more options.
- Do you think that WoW is time consuming? Yes.. and if you ask my wife the answer would be - yes extremely.
- Has WoW any kind of influence on your life outside Azeroth? Well several of my real life friends play wow too and some of them in same guild so wow and raiding tends to pop up in cenversations rather regularily. Wow also sometimes puts a ?slight? strain on family life (when wife rep drops too low due to late night raiding).
Broader context:
- How does your environment think of WoW? (are they aware of it? do they dislike it, encourage it? etc). Wife varies between tolerating it and threatening to put a sledge hammer through my comp. She was lot more supportive/interested in Star wars galaxies as she could at times help my decorate the house and do more of the ?socio-cultural? stuff. Most friends play wow or other games so no problem there
- Why do you think this mmorpg(=Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) has become so succesful in comparison to others? Human interaction. Programmed responses to dfifferent actions in game are always poor in co-maprison to human interaction. This is most evident in PvP, but also in other spheres.
- What do you think of the image that the media present of WoW? Haven?t really noticed it too much.
- Is there in your opinion an ideology behind WoW/Blizzard? Blizzard has a rather self evident ideology - to make lots of real life money for blizzard. Wow is the most commercial mmorpg ever and that shows in many respects. Game mechanics can be learnt very quickly, crafting is easy enough for 5 year olds and everything is aimed at making the game approachable for as many people as possible (at least when compared to SWG for example where crafting took weeks or months of rl time to learn properly). This commercial attitude in many ways also shows in actual game as a lack of ideologies or political refer-ences to make sure that the game doesn?t offend anyone (there are priests, but no religions for example).
- Do you think Blizzard is part of a multinational? Depends on what you mean with a multinational?
- Other remarks (please keep this short)
Lostsoul/Idoru/Fatae/Ovidius
General information:
- age/gender/current occupation: 36, male, Futures researcher/Foresight expert/Urban policy expert
- Do you play WoW? Yes. 2 years and 3-4 months or so.
- Do you play other games? Wow is currently the only mmorpg that I play due to the fact that they tend to be very time consuming and it is rather impossible to do anything meaningfull in more than one at the same time. Before wow I used to play Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) mmorpg. Before that my mmorpg history reaches well back to very early 90?s and the ASCII based MUD?s.
Besides mmorpgs I tend to play either games that have a good/immersive storyline (favourites would be Fallout 1&2, Planescape Torment, Baldurs Gate, Knigths of the old republic), turn based strategy/tactical game s(Combat Mis-sion 2, Civilization, Master of Orion) and occasionaly multiplayer 1st person shooters (Battlefiels).
Wow specific questions:
- How often do you play? (game time over ten minutes). 4 times a week. Depends a bit on realf life work load.
- What do you specifically like about WoW? (general features). Community, raiding, well made quests.
- What do you dislike about WoW? (general features) It lacks many of the ?sand box? elements that games like for example Star Wars Galaxies had. These include player housing, guild houses, possibility to change the hair/skin colour and tattoos on characters, unique or modifyiable clothing, art items, furniture etc. In other words I miss everythign that could make the characters played and the social environment more unique (instead of half a dozen stereotype racial looks and everyone wearing similar looking gear). I also thing that the crafting system is over simplistic and poor when compared to many others.
- How is your view on the social interaction in WoW? Surprisingly good, especially if you find a good guild. And to be honest the community is the main thing that keeps me logging online out side raid times. On the other hand wow doesn?t really support community forming or social playing too well (player housing, villages, guild houses etc. would be a really welcome addition). Also the chat channel system could use more options.
- Do you think that WoW is time consuming? Yes.. and if you ask my wife the answer would be - yes extremely.
- Has WoW any kind of influence on your life outside Azeroth? Well several of my real life friends play wow too and some of them in same guild so wow and raiding tends to pop up in cenversations rather regularily. Wow also sometimes puts a ?slight? strain on family life (when wife rep drops too low due to late night raiding).
Broader context:
- How does your environment think of WoW? (are they aware of it? do they dislike it, encourage it? etc). Wife varies between tolerating it and threatening to put a sledge hammer through my comp. She was lot more supportive/interested in Star wars galaxies as she could at times help my decorate the house and do more of the ?socio-cultural? stuff. Most friends play wow or other games so no problem there
- Why do you think this mmorpg(=Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) has become so succesful in comparison to others? Human interaction. Programmed responses to dfifferent actions in game are always poor in co-maprison to human interaction. This is most evident in PvP, but also in other spheres.
- What do you think of the image that the media present of WoW? Haven?t really noticed it too much.
- Is there in your opinion an ideology behind WoW/Blizzard? Blizzard has a rather self evident ideology - to make lots of real life money for blizzard. Wow is the most commercial mmorpg ever and that shows in many respects. Game mechanics can be learnt very quickly, crafting is easy enough for 5 year olds and everything is aimed at making the game approachable for as many people as possible (at least when compared to SWG for example where crafting took weeks or months of rl time to learn properly). This commercial attitude in many ways also shows in actual game as a lack of ideologies or political refer-ences to make sure that the game doesn?t offend anyone (there are priests, but no religions for example).
- Do you think Blizzard is part of a multinational? Depends on what you mean with a multinational?
- Other remarks (please keep this short)
Lostsoul/Idoru/Fatae/Ovidius
Hi Aylun,
I'm not sure whether you're still gathering info, if so here's some more:
age/gender/current occupation: 33, Female, Clinical Perfusion Scientist, line manager (run heart-lung machine in heart surgery)
- Do you play WoW? (if yes: for how long?) Since US beta, I guess approx 3.5 years
- Do you play other games? (if yes: name one or two favourite titles) None
Wow specific questions:
- How often do you play? (game time over ten minutes) 3/4 times per week
- What do you specifically like about WoW? (general features) Sense of achievement from questing, good groups etc
- What do you dislike about WoW? (general features) I can't think of anything at the moment...oh yes! I HATE PVP!!! When someone feels the need to kill you and camp your corpse, making the game unplayable.
- How is your view on the social interaction in WoW? It's very much like real life, you get the same kind of politics as you can get with any social group, but in some ways because most communication is typed it's easier for people to take offence as it misses some of the nuances and feedback of face to face communication. I have no real experience of other computer games but for me the social interaction of wow adds a whole new depth to it and I suppose brings the game alive, it also helps me sound less nerdy spending so much time in front of a computer when i explain the social interaction to my real life friends!
- Do you think that WoW is time consuming? It's very addictive and I feel guilty about neglecting family and friends by not answering the phone during raids/groups. It would be very easy to let it take over your life to the detriment of everything else, but i think whilst most people start by playing way too much, most of the ones i've come across realise how much they are playing and try to achieve a balance.
- Has WoW any kind of influence on your life outside Azeroth? I used to take it quite personally if someone wasn't happy and felt the need to leave the social group "guild", I'd try and talk them around, try and improve things. But now I feel that everyone has a different path, different goals and if they are not happy then they need to make a change. Then when a similar thing happens to a member of a close team in a work environment with a very low staff turnover (someone unhappy, wanting a change, applying for other jobs) experiences in wow have made me more accepting of an individuals need to follow their own path, without trying to make them change their mind. I suppose it can be a pretty good study on social interaction.
Broader context:
- How does your environment think of WoW? (are they aware of it? do they dislike it, encourage it? etc) Most of my work colleagues rib me about it (I have managed to introduce 2 of them to wow, one of which has got his wife into it to such an extent that she plays more than me and bux put together!) and when we talk about it in work my other colleagues say "oh god they're talking pixies again!" I think most of my friends probably see it as something slightly nerdy to do, but we don't really mention it when we are together in real life.
- Why do you think this mmorpg(=Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) has become so succesful in comparison to others? It's accessibilty to all. I knew one of my colleagues would like it as he's into history, war and tactics etc. His wife (once she got over her disgust at him bringing home another computer game) initially just wanted to "pick flowers" and make potions to sell, not to actually kill anything, but once you have got into the game there is so much to learn and do (she now raids 3-4 times a week, and has frequent meet ups with her guild in RL). It's a whole world full of most of the things in real life (social interaction, personal achievement) without a lot of pressures that can be found in RL.
- What do you think of the image that the media present of WoW? blizzard makes a huge amount of money from it, well good on them for a sound business idea
- Is there in your opinion an ideology behind WoW/Blizzard? I suppose that some of blizzard will be passionate about what they are creating but i'm guessing that a large amount of them will be looking at the profit margin....
- Do you think Blizzard is part of a multinational? There are either a few very rich people at the top of blizzard, but i think it's more likely that it's owned by some other company with masses of shareholders.
- Other remarks (please keep this short) I'd never really played computer games (i only ever really played kula world on play station and a few things like doom in work, and manic minor as a kid). When i met bux i couldn't understand that he couldn't see me on wednesday as he was meeting up with a group of people on-line to play a computer game, I suppose I viewed it as a nerdy thing to do...But once introduced to it, it's very easy to get into and get addicted to, i'm guessing more people would be playing it if they could get past the initial stigma of it being something "nerdy". Sit everyone in a room for an hour with only a computer and wow for company and i'm sure most of them would choose to play it again...
Ok not very short....
Vet x
I'm not sure whether you're still gathering info, if so here's some more:
age/gender/current occupation: 33, Female, Clinical Perfusion Scientist, line manager (run heart-lung machine in heart surgery)
- Do you play WoW? (if yes: for how long?) Since US beta, I guess approx 3.5 years
- Do you play other games? (if yes: name one or two favourite titles) None
Wow specific questions:
- How often do you play? (game time over ten minutes) 3/4 times per week
- What do you specifically like about WoW? (general features) Sense of achievement from questing, good groups etc
- What do you dislike about WoW? (general features) I can't think of anything at the moment...oh yes! I HATE PVP!!! When someone feels the need to kill you and camp your corpse, making the game unplayable.
- How is your view on the social interaction in WoW? It's very much like real life, you get the same kind of politics as you can get with any social group, but in some ways because most communication is typed it's easier for people to take offence as it misses some of the nuances and feedback of face to face communication. I have no real experience of other computer games but for me the social interaction of wow adds a whole new depth to it and I suppose brings the game alive, it also helps me sound less nerdy spending so much time in front of a computer when i explain the social interaction to my real life friends!
- Do you think that WoW is time consuming? It's very addictive and I feel guilty about neglecting family and friends by not answering the phone during raids/groups. It would be very easy to let it take over your life to the detriment of everything else, but i think whilst most people start by playing way too much, most of the ones i've come across realise how much they are playing and try to achieve a balance.
- Has WoW any kind of influence on your life outside Azeroth? I used to take it quite personally if someone wasn't happy and felt the need to leave the social group "guild", I'd try and talk them around, try and improve things. But now I feel that everyone has a different path, different goals and if they are not happy then they need to make a change. Then when a similar thing happens to a member of a close team in a work environment with a very low staff turnover (someone unhappy, wanting a change, applying for other jobs) experiences in wow have made me more accepting of an individuals need to follow their own path, without trying to make them change their mind. I suppose it can be a pretty good study on social interaction.
Broader context:
- How does your environment think of WoW? (are they aware of it? do they dislike it, encourage it? etc) Most of my work colleagues rib me about it (I have managed to introduce 2 of them to wow, one of which has got his wife into it to such an extent that she plays more than me and bux put together!) and when we talk about it in work my other colleagues say "oh god they're talking pixies again!" I think most of my friends probably see it as something slightly nerdy to do, but we don't really mention it when we are together in real life.
- Why do you think this mmorpg(=Massively multiplayer online role-playing game) has become so succesful in comparison to others? It's accessibilty to all. I knew one of my colleagues would like it as he's into history, war and tactics etc. His wife (once she got over her disgust at him bringing home another computer game) initially just wanted to "pick flowers" and make potions to sell, not to actually kill anything, but once you have got into the game there is so much to learn and do (she now raids 3-4 times a week, and has frequent meet ups with her guild in RL). It's a whole world full of most of the things in real life (social interaction, personal achievement) without a lot of pressures that can be found in RL.
- What do you think of the image that the media present of WoW? blizzard makes a huge amount of money from it, well good on them for a sound business idea
- Is there in your opinion an ideology behind WoW/Blizzard? I suppose that some of blizzard will be passionate about what they are creating but i'm guessing that a large amount of them will be looking at the profit margin....
- Do you think Blizzard is part of a multinational? There are either a few very rich people at the top of blizzard, but i think it's more likely that it's owned by some other company with masses of shareholders.
- Other remarks (please keep this short) I'd never really played computer games (i only ever really played kula world on play station and a few things like doom in work, and manic minor as a kid). When i met bux i couldn't understand that he couldn't see me on wednesday as he was meeting up with a group of people on-line to play a computer game, I suppose I viewed it as a nerdy thing to do...But once introduced to it, it's very easy to get into and get addicted to, i'm guessing more people would be playing it if they could get past the initial stigma of it being something "nerdy". Sit everyone in a room for an hour with only a computer and wow for company and i'm sure most of them would choose to play it again...
Ok not very short....
Vet x
i wanna thank everybody who's been helping me out with the reception research: so...thanks guys! *hugs all*
i haven't got the time to respond to everyone of you personally but i must say that most of the answers are the ones i expected (so most of you fit the 'profile' i had in mind
)...except maybe Lost saying "that the crafting system is over simplistic and poor when compared to many others." (not that it isn't true but it's annoying enough already so don't give Blizz any ideas please!)
again: thanks for your time, your input has been very useful and will be added to my paper.
and oh yes for those who wanna know: Blizz is a part of Vivendi games, who, in turn, is a part of the multinational Vivendi SA. (just to answer that question)
i haven't got the time to respond to everyone of you personally but i must say that most of the answers are the ones i expected (so most of you fit the 'profile' i had in mind
)...except maybe Lost saying "that the crafting system is over simplistic and poor when compared to many others." (not that it isn't true but it's annoying enough already so don't give Blizz any ideas please!)again: thanks for your time, your input has been very useful and will be added to my paper.
and oh yes for those who wanna know: Blizz is a part of Vivendi games, who, in turn, is a part of the multinational Vivendi SA. (just to answer that question)
and just to make it even bigger, Vivendi and Activision just had a fusion making them 2nd biggest gaming company in world. Only EA is bigger atm.
Lost
Lost