The thread title should attract the persons I'm writing this post to. So, now that you are here, let's get on with it - I'll try to keep it brief and to the point.
Yesterday in MC was a painful experience, thanks in no small part to a small, but dedicated, contingent of our raiding force. These people would, it seemed, go out of their way to ignore repeated requests by the raid leaders to, among other things, pay attention and not clog up the /raid channel with their trivial yammerings.
That, however, is not all. I was - against all rules, I know - running a damagemeter. No, it only reads from my own combat log, so it doesn't cause lag for anyone else. Yes, I am sure. Yes I am positive that it's fairly accurate. I'm not going to post any screenshots, but I am going to post some of the more pertinent points as of just before the Garr pull:
- All hunters but one were below the highest shaman in DPS. The highest shaman was at 12th spot.
- Top spot was taken by a warrior, second by a warlock, third by a mage, fourth by a mage.
- Apart from the warlock at 2nd, the next warlock was at 7th and the other two below 13th spot.
- One mage was at 22nd spot.
- Only two rogues were above 12th spot.
I could go in this vein, but I'm not trying to point any fingers, just to make a point and a plea:
Please, please, PLEASE try to pay JUST a little more attention.
I know raids can be boring and trash pulls are a pain but it's no excuse for playing your class at 40-50% capacity - that's just not good enough on a raid. If we are to advance as a raid coalition, some of you really need to pick up your acts.
Finally, I'm not going to run a damagemeter again for a good long while, and neither should you. For me, it was a way to make a point and confirm a suspicion I've had for a while.
If you have any questions, feel free to contact me in-game on Casspir.
Happy trails,
Cass
Ps. As for my credentials, I'm a sort-of infrequent WoW raider, but I raided pretty seriously for 1? years in EQ and I know a shitty raidforce when I see one. (NTOV -> VT -> Basic PoP -> Elementals for those who are interested). I am also not alone in my opinions.
Pps. As for some playing tips, read some class forums. Stay away from the official WoW boards and go for the player-run boards, as those tend to have more genuine content and less "BLIZZ PLZ READ!".
Enter another world
By Fantasy
Fantasy Marshal Command
Tribes of War Coalition
Tribes of War Coalition
Post a replyGet Your Purples Here!
29 posts
To be honest Cass, I don't think damagemeters say anything.
I have a damagemeter running also and my results are a lot, and I really mean that, different then yours. I don't run them because I wanna know how good or bad I am (like I said before, people have to do other things then damage sometimes) but to check sudden changes in it/check more easy if certain people don't listen to calls/ etc. I found this a lot, that the dmg meters from different people can differ substantiantly. Makes me wonder why to run them at all cause they don't seem to be accurate at all.
Hunters are in no way the class that does most damage, and because we seem to have a fairly high amount of hunters their gear is distributed thinly. While the mages for example are frequent raiders and we are only with 4, for casters there are craftable purples, so we do a lot of dmg because we have better gear. But then again, on a fair amount of fights we are decursing so we don't.
For one, I hope this post does not make them/people DPS before the calls just to get higher up, because I spend a great deal trying to unlearn people to do that. The same with them not critting to high: where a mage doesn't crit so high but crits often, a hunter does a lot of white sustained dmg but can do crazy crits. We try to teach them that one of those bigass crits are not that good because they can suddenly draw aggro, etc etc. It's the same with warlocks, they can do crazy dmg but have to do other curses to benefit the raid, etc.
That shaman you were talking about was probably Windhoof, and we all know that Windhoof can top the dmg list if he wants too, so that only maybe raxorblade can keep up with him. So it's not fair to say to a hunter "you can't even get higher then him" cause they can't
Same with Raxorblade for example, crazy dmg there It all depends on the person, his gear, what he and his classmates arranged what/who should do, etc.
And ofcourse, I can tip to everyone that it's really a good idea to talk to other members of your class, about your class. I've done the same thing with my hunter and learned some pretty valuable stuff that I didn't come up with on my own. We as mages ask eachother advice as well. Everyone has a way of playing their class and you can learn from them.
Do I agree with you that people clog the raidchannel with chatter? Yes, and we tell them right away on the spot.
Do I agree with you that some people don't seem to listen or pay attention? Yes, and we are on that as well. I think the raidleaders and everyone else know who they are and believe me we have our eyes on them.
Are people already kicked from the group because they don't improve? That also.
Is there still room for improvement? A lot.
But I also think that you are overall very negative. We started MC a short while back and are still in the process that, we have a steady and known group we can count on but also a number of spots that keep being occupied by different people. But still we can get to the fourth boss in one evening.
Also we still have an influx of new people and lately we don't do the whole explaining anymore ("this is a firelord, tactics are...") Even for bosses we don't explain tactics anymore. So they don't know stuff that is very logical for us. I try to chat with them a bit in /w or explain them some stuff when I notice they don't do it right, and most of the time I find out they are really nice people and wanna do it right but they don't know how yet
Anyway, your post now comes across to me that nobody in this group is any good, while I think that at least 95% of the group consist of great players. I'm not sure if you meant it that way ofcourse, but this is the vibe I get from it. The nasty thing is that it only takes one persons mistake to frack something up. But even a good player can make a stupid mistake. Maybe a more positive attitude towards this would help more. You are a lock, maybe if you see another lock do something that you don't agree with, you could /w him politely with "maybe you could try this or this". Maybe he convinces you that his way is better, maybe other way around.
If you notice something else, try to whisper one of the leaders or me. It's quite hard to play the game and pay attention to what 40 people are doing so we don't always notice the less obvious stuff.
We are working very hard to get this group further on and we need everyone's help with that We also want to try and keep the friendly Tribes feel going, but that is getting harder and harder to manage with stuff like not listening/chattering in raid instead of tribeschatter/etc. So I hope soon the sign ups with stabilize even more. We get more and more sign ups and more and more the same and had the pleasure to welcome some new and friendly and good players.
But another trend I spot is that the raidleaders are getting more and more strict towards offenders, and I welcome that a lot, to try and get the few weak spots out as well!
I have a damagemeter running also and my results are a lot, and I really mean that, different then yours. I don't run them because I wanna know how good or bad I am (like I said before, people have to do other things then damage sometimes) but to check sudden changes in it/check more easy if certain people don't listen to calls/ etc. I found this a lot, that the dmg meters from different people can differ substantiantly. Makes me wonder why to run them at all cause they don't seem to be accurate at all.
Hunters are in no way the class that does most damage, and because we seem to have a fairly high amount of hunters their gear is distributed thinly. While the mages for example are frequent raiders and we are only with 4, for casters there are craftable purples, so we do a lot of dmg because we have better gear. But then again, on a fair amount of fights we are decursing so we don't.
For one, I hope this post does not make them/people DPS before the calls just to get higher up, because I spend a great deal trying to unlearn people to do that. The same with them not critting to high: where a mage doesn't crit so high but crits often, a hunter does a lot of white sustained dmg but can do crazy crits. We try to teach them that one of those bigass crits are not that good because they can suddenly draw aggro, etc etc. It's the same with warlocks, they can do crazy dmg but have to do other curses to benefit the raid, etc.
That shaman you were talking about was probably Windhoof, and we all know that Windhoof can top the dmg list if he wants too, so that only maybe raxorblade can keep up with him. So it's not fair to say to a hunter "you can't even get higher then him" cause they can't
Same with Raxorblade for example, crazy dmg there It all depends on the person, his gear, what he and his classmates arranged what/who should do, etc.And ofcourse, I can tip to everyone that it's really a good idea to talk to other members of your class, about your class. I've done the same thing with my hunter and learned some pretty valuable stuff that I didn't come up with on my own. We as mages ask eachother advice as well. Everyone has a way of playing their class and you can learn from them.
Do I agree with you that people clog the raidchannel with chatter? Yes, and we tell them right away on the spot.
Do I agree with you that some people don't seem to listen or pay attention? Yes, and we are on that as well. I think the raidleaders and everyone else know who they are and believe me we have our eyes on them.
Are people already kicked from the group because they don't improve? That also.
Is there still room for improvement? A lot.
But I also think that you are overall very negative. We started MC a short while back and are still in the process that, we have a steady and known group we can count on but also a number of spots that keep being occupied by different people. But still we can get to the fourth boss in one evening.
Also we still have an influx of new people and lately we don't do the whole explaining anymore ("this is a firelord, tactics are...") Even for bosses we don't explain tactics anymore. So they don't know stuff that is very logical for us. I try to chat with them a bit in /w or explain them some stuff when I notice they don't do it right, and most of the time I find out they are really nice people and wanna do it right but they don't know how yet
Anyway, your post now comes across to me that nobody in this group is any good, while I think that at least 95% of the group consist of great players. I'm not sure if you meant it that way ofcourse, but this is the vibe I get from it. The nasty thing is that it only takes one persons mistake to frack something up. But even a good player can make a stupid mistake. Maybe a more positive attitude towards this would help more. You are a lock, maybe if you see another lock do something that you don't agree with, you could /w him politely with "maybe you could try this or this". Maybe he convinces you that his way is better, maybe other way around.
If you notice something else, try to whisper one of the leaders or me. It's quite hard to play the game and pay attention to what 40 people are doing so we don't always notice the less obvious stuff.
We are working very hard to get this group further on and we need everyone's help with that
We also want to try and keep the friendly Tribes feel going, but that is getting harder and harder to manage with stuff like not listening/chattering in raid instead of tribeschatter/etc. So I hope soon the sign ups with stabilize even more. We get more and more sign ups and more and more the same and had the pleasure to welcome some new and friendly and good players.But another trend I spot is that the raidleaders are getting more and more strict towards offenders, and I welcome that a lot, to try and get the few weak spots out as well!
Thanks for your reply, Liz.
I respect your opinions and thanks for the feedback, which is duly noted. I'd like to underline right away that I think the coalition as a whole is doing really well - I mean, you have to do something right to take down 4 MC bosses in one evening and our ZG runs are pretty swell.
I'd written a looong rant here but decided to take it away as it's somewhat superfluous, so I'll just sum it up: I'm misanthropic by nature, and even more so in online games - with good reason, as I see it. Most folks in the raid coalition have won my respect, not least our very capable tanks and support classes (inc. priests).
As for the others: You have the anonymity of the Internet between you and all the other folks whose time you are wasting, so who cares if you're not paying attention? I'm a jerk in real life and I'm a jerk online, but I also know that I'm playing the best way I can because I don't want to waste my own time or that of my fellow raiders. I know most everyone else has that attitude as well (minus the jerk part), but I'm starting to see a pattern with some.
I also knew that my damagemetres data would be called into question, and I can't argue with the fact that results vary wildly. I'll just say that it's the same I've run in a ZG run where the results corresponded very well to another raider's, with only two people switching places in the chart. I was using the metres to illustrate a point that still stands without the data
I'm also well aware that people's damage depends on their role in the raid. I know that e.g. warlocks are responsible for curses - I was doing CoS all night yesterday - and I also know that there are nobler purposes than DPSing. I'm saying that it should be possible to pump out some decent DPS without engaging before DPS call and while tending to one's duties - especially when you ARE a DPS class by nature.
The differing nature of damage dealers is also not lost to me, and I like to think that I appreciate the finer points of the whole "rock paper scissors"-thing that's class balance, but.. The numbers should sorta even out over the course of a 3-hour raid, don't you think? Meh, let's leave it at that.
My negativity is intentional, I don't believe in cuddling people (too much). However, mistakes are made and, as I said in my previous post, that's just fine with me, I probably make more than the average. It's screwing around and slacking off through an entire raid that grinds my gears and should, as I see it, result in a hard kick in the tuchus.
And yes, the raid leadership's new and harder attitude is indeed very refreshing!
I respect your opinions and thanks for the feedback, which is duly noted. I'd like to underline right away that I think the coalition as a whole is doing really well - I mean, you have to do something right to take down 4 MC bosses in one evening and our ZG runs are pretty swell.
I'd written a looong rant here but decided to take it away as it's somewhat superfluous, so I'll just sum it up: I'm misanthropic by nature, and even more so in online games - with good reason, as I see it. Most folks in the raid coalition have won my respect, not least our very capable tanks and support classes (inc. priests).
As for the others: You have the anonymity of the Internet between you and all the other folks whose time you are wasting, so who cares if you're not paying attention? I'm a jerk in real life and I'm a jerk online, but I also know that I'm playing the best way I can because I don't want to waste my own time or that of my fellow raiders. I know most everyone else has that attitude as well (minus the jerk part), but I'm starting to see a pattern with some.
I also knew that my damagemetres data would be called into question, and I can't argue with the fact that results vary wildly. I'll just say that it's the same I've run in a ZG run where the results corresponded very well to another raider's, with only two people switching places in the chart. I was using the metres to illustrate a point that still stands without the data
I'm also well aware that people's damage depends on their role in the raid. I know that e.g. warlocks are responsible for curses - I was doing CoS all night yesterday - and I also know that there are nobler purposes than DPSing. I'm saying that it should be possible to pump out some decent DPS without engaging before DPS call and while tending to one's duties - especially when you ARE a DPS class by nature.
The differing nature of damage dealers is also not lost to me, and I like to think that I appreciate the finer points of the whole "rock paper scissors"-thing that's class balance, but.. The numbers should sorta even out over the course of a 3-hour raid, don't you think? Meh, let's leave it at that.
My negativity is intentional, I don't believe in cuddling people (too much). However, mistakes are made and, as I said in my previous post, that's just fine with me, I probably make more than the average. It's screwing around and slacking off through an entire raid that grinds my gears and should, as I see it, result in a hard kick in the tuchus.
And yes, the raid leadership's new and harder attitude is indeed very refreshing!
This is also a very important aspect for me. I don't think some people understand that they are spoiling others raid. I come to have a nice raid with my friends and yes often I feel like others are spoiling my fun and time, and that makes me angry and wonder why I should do this anyway. The sucky part is that it only needs one person. 39 people can be great, one person not doing what's necessary of doing something plain stupid (pulling adds, not purging, pulling aggro, not decursing, not running if you are the bomb, not getting out of cure or in poison at hakkar, you name it there are hundreds of things!) can ruin it for the other 39. So I stick because I wouldn't wanna miss that group of great people and hope the one will turn around in behaviour and be pleasent as well.As for the others: You have the anonymity of the Internet between you and all the other folks whose time you are wasting, so who cares if you're not paying attention? I'm a jerk in real life and I'm a jerk online, but I also know that I'm playing the best way I can because I don't want to waste my own time or that of my fellow raiders. I know most everyone else has that attitude as well (minus the jerk part), but I'm starting to see a pattern with some.
Also for this reason I don't like MC that much. Doing something where everyone needs to be their best for 3 hours at a time, with 40 strangers? We'd kill eachother off irl as well. It's just horrible. Long live 20 man raids, whoever thought of 40 man raids should be kicked in the nuts. Thank god the raids are gonna be 25 in TBC!
Mistakes can be made, s--- can happen, that's all ok for me if you learn from it and see that something went wrong. But I think I can reassure you that the pattern you see, we see it too. Big sister is watching you
I have to say, there were some people on my "blacklist" that HAVE turned around and their attitude has improved (a lot) over the last few raids. Kudos, you showed me it can be done and it's not hopeless
I wouldn't say I found you a jerk, altough a bit negative in your first post, but I think we can agree that I'm not always the sweetest and patient girl around and have my big mouth up immediatly. But I also like a bit of love for the people that deserve it, so althought I can be nasty about people and let them know, if I think someone is a good player I let them know as well.
I dont know about you guys but for me todays raid was one of the most frustrating and irritating experiences ive had so far in wow. I hear ya both lizi and cass, and seen in the light of this nights raid, you cant help wonder if its all worth our time. I play (or at least i started out) playing this game for fun and relaxation, but there was nothing fun or relaxing about this nights run. It just left me drained in all the ways it is not suppose to.
First of we have the raidchatting problems that evolved catastrophically from the get go. Dont get me wrong, i concure with the new hard ass policy, but is does not leave much room for smiles and giggles when ppl are yelling my ears of "why was i kicked", "OMG" and "wtf?" etc. And i kind of get it threefold since im the guildleader of Night Marauders: 1) in the raid it self, 2) in guildchat since some of my members where involved in the overconfident raidchat use, 3) by mere tells from confused and p----- off members and angry RLs telling me to "control my members". And to top it off, im the main puller for fracks sake. Im sorry, but what do you want me to do? Throw me a frigging bone for jebus sake. Sorry had to get it off my chest. I cant pull away and talk to everyone at the same time. Im only one person. So thats first of why i had to decline my pulling position in the middle og the raid so i could "control my members". All i want to do is play the game. Have fun. Maybe even get an epic now and then if im lucky. But no, not happpening.
Im not pointing fingers and im not trying to fuel any fires against anyone, but ppl come on. We need to get our s--- together. All of us. Raiders, learn the magic words /join tribeschatter, and leaders try smiling once in while
Its impossible to be an hardass all the time, and that will just make the whole thing feel like a job and not an actual leisure activity.
I dont know. Im just a little frustrated about our luck lately. Even when things finaly seems to go good we pick the short straw in the respawn department. Its... just ... not .. fair. Nah, nvm. Tired and ranting here. Had to get it of my chest. Hope i didnt p--- anyone of. Most of you are doing one heck of a job, and i love raiding with you guys, but a night like tonight just got me wondering if i really need this
.
Just hopes it gets better soon.
luv
eido
First of we have the raidchatting problems that evolved catastrophically from the get go. Dont get me wrong, i concure with the new hard ass policy, but is does not leave much room for smiles and giggles when ppl are yelling my ears of "why was i kicked", "OMG" and "wtf?" etc. And i kind of get it threefold since im the guildleader of Night Marauders: 1) in the raid it self, 2) in guildchat since some of my members where involved in the overconfident raidchat use, 3) by mere tells from confused and p----- off members and angry RLs telling me to "control my members". And to top it off, im the main puller for fracks sake. Im sorry, but what do you want me to do? Throw me a frigging bone for jebus sake. Sorry had to get it off my chest. I cant pull away and talk to everyone at the same time. Im only one person. So thats first of why i had to decline my pulling position in the middle og the raid so i could "control my members". All i want to do is play the game. Have fun. Maybe even get an epic now and then if im lucky. But no, not happpening.
Im not pointing fingers and im not trying to fuel any fires against anyone, but ppl come on. We need to get our s--- together. All of us. Raiders, learn the magic words /join tribeschatter, and leaders try smiling once in while
Its impossible to be an hardass all the time, and that will just make the whole thing feel like a job and not an actual leisure activity.I dont know. Im just a little frustrated about our luck lately. Even when things finaly seems to go good we pick the short straw in the respawn department. Its... just ... not .. fair. Nah, nvm. Tired and ranting here. Had to get it of my chest. Hope i didnt p--- anyone of. Most of you are doing one heck of a job, and i love raiding with you guys, but a night like tonight just got me wondering if i really need this
.Just hopes it gets better soon.
luv
eido
Hey Eido
Well it wasn't only your members since we had to remove 2 of the Feral Instinct members as well. I'm all for people joining tribeschatter and just chat giggle ask whatever in there. They don't need to shut up, just do it in that *#&$&$ channel. That's all. No yelling, no spamming of emotes, no /raid, just....type /tribeschatter....how hard can it be...You know I asked about...5x a minute. It seems too much to ask people to just BEHAVE. How easy to miss an important call from the leader/MT if 40 people are having their way in the channel.
And I'm not keeping those annoying people that will just REFUSE to listen to even three personal warnings in the raid because otherwise they will go yelling and screaming (and we reported a GM that that new thing of people not being transported out is really a bad bad thing).
And believe me, if we would have kicked everyone that was using raid, we would be left with maybe 20. So I have been warning and seeing through my fingers a lot. People respond "chill mate I only did it one/two times". We'll: we are with 38? If people can do whatever they want just once, or twice, and saying "sorry" or "chill" or whatever makes that right, that means we will have 76-100 times of spamming..while I think just one warning IN RAIDWARNING means THAT MEANS FOR ALL OF YOU. If I have to 3x personal whisper 40 people I will never get a frekking frostbolt out.
And you see it with Geddon. You are so much better off with 20 good people then with 40 with a just a couple of those people that just can't listen or behave. Those "elitists" group are starting to sound better and better, because having to spend your time with children throwing tantrums is not that appealing. I'm all for kicking someone then, I don't care if that means we will be left over with the 33 people that can behave. We will certainly reach a lot more with only that!
Well it wasn't only your members since we had to remove 2 of the Feral Instinct members as well. I'm all for people joining tribeschatter and just chat giggle ask whatever in there. They don't need to shut up, just do it in that *#&$&$ channel. That's all. No yelling, no spamming of emotes, no /raid, just....type /tribeschatter....how hard can it be...You know I asked about...5x a minute. It seems too much to ask people to just BEHAVE. How easy to miss an important call from the leader/MT if 40 people are having their way in the channel.
And I'm not keeping those annoying people that will just REFUSE to listen to even three personal warnings in the raid because otherwise they will go yelling and screaming (and we reported a GM that that new thing of people not being transported out is really a bad bad thing).
And believe me, if we would have kicked everyone that was using raid, we would be left with maybe 20. So I have been warning and seeing through my fingers a lot. People respond "chill mate I only did it one/two times". We'll: we are with 38? If people can do whatever they want just once, or twice, and saying "sorry" or "chill" or whatever makes that right, that means we will have 76-100 times of spamming..while I think just one warning IN RAIDWARNING means THAT MEANS FOR ALL OF YOU. If I have to 3x personal whisper 40 people I will never get a frekking frostbolt out.
And you see it with Geddon. You are so much better off with 20 good people then with 40 with a just a couple of those people that just can't listen or behave. Those "elitists" group are starting to sound better and better, because having to spend your time with children throwing tantrums is not that appealing. I'm all for kicking someone then, I don't care if that means we will be left over with the 33 people that can behave. We will certainly reach a lot more with only that!
Sorry to hear that last night did not go as well as I was hoping,really dissapointing to hear that the same people keep ignoring the fact that they are playing with 40 other people in that raid.....this stuff just seems to happento us as we reach a point in raiding that stops our progress....it has happened a couple of times before over the past year and a half.
The last thing Lisz pointed out is true ,we always seem to to do incredibly well with a much smaller group ,we have taken down bosses that we have trouble with in large groups with a smaller focused group.
I Hope that all our Tribesplayers read this little topic cause it realy points out the one thing that is keeping us back imo....We could do MC in two nights I am certain of it...,Geddon is just a regular raid stopper,but if we can get passed that silly matchbook on steroids we'll walk over the next three bosses in no time.
All this needs is raid focus on performance,this is where you get your kicks,and fun in a raid ,doin well with other people....
The fun does not come from emoting to each other,playing trivia on separate channels,ignoring your fellow players cause your to busy showing off a new dance routine to your party neighbour.......
Progress is the best motivator around as we have seen countless times before,so that is were our efforts should go....we will not be wasting any more time on discipline ...it will just be enforced....period.
So I guess this is were I say LETS DO THIS! ...and get passed what happened past raids.
We are a good crew and will continue to get better ,mark my words.
Koren
The last thing Lisz pointed out is true ,we always seem to to do incredibly well with a much smaller group ,we have taken down bosses that we have trouble with in large groups with a smaller focused group.
I Hope that all our Tribesplayers read this little topic cause it realy points out the one thing that is keeping us back imo....We could do MC in two nights I am certain of it...,Geddon is just a regular raid stopper,but if we can get passed that silly matchbook on steroids we'll walk over the next three bosses in no time.
All this needs is raid focus on performance,this is where you get your kicks,and fun in a raid ,doin well with other people....
The fun does not come from emoting to each other,playing trivia on separate channels,ignoring your fellow players cause your to busy showing off a new dance routine to your party neighbour.......
Progress is the best motivator around as we have seen countless times before,so that is were our efforts should go....we will not be wasting any more time on discipline ...it will just be enforced....period.
So I guess this is were I say LETS DO THIS! ...and get passed what happened past raids.
We are a good crew and will continue to get better ,mark my words.
Koren
I wanna respond a bit to what eido wrote... and then reply in a general matter for the topic contents...
Raid wise: we had perfect NO dps before the call... and how about that second try on geddon... blimey it was like synchronised swimming
but I managed to let it slide right down the toilet... lol
...
From my point of view its simple: I have a puller
A GM of one of the guilds
And a raidmember
That you perform all these rolls yourself is up to you.
It is no secret that NM is disorganised at the moment and that there are a lot of ppl in there that shouldn't even be allowed anywhere near our nice group of friends. If you feel the need to keep these ppl in the guild even when they misbehave you have an extra task on your hands.
for example: "10/31/2006 Reason to join= i would like to join a guild doing beginning part of high lvl instances such as MC and AQ 20 and i woud be pleased to do ZG to ...........I know that some in the guild don't like me very much, i'm not gonna mention names but i would to ask them myself WHY they not like me i got some stuffs for guild bank EVEN a epic, i'm 17 years old and i'm From norway."
is the application of assasinator... who was one of the ppl kicked for not using the appropriate chatchannels even after being told to do so. That he was allowed into the guild is something I wonder about: "why"... that he gets to go on one of our raids after a week is also a mystery to me... so in all, u could have prevented yourself a lot of grief by just starting @ the beginning.
No assasinator, No member kicked from raid, No whispers, guildchat, tribeschatter, yelling etc etc... and no RL telling you to control your guildy.
So i'm not telling you how you should organise things, but I can point out some flaws at the way you have done it up to now.
If you like to be puller, gr8 !, pull away.
If you need to sort out some guildies because they misbehave... thats the risk of being GM. If you only take ppl u can vouch for you don't have these kind of problems. Or just delegate one of the officers the task of dealing with such individuals. I dunno...
If you enjoy raiding because noone is irritating.... gr8 But that does mean I have to take measurements against ppl spoiling the fun. If they turn out to be your guildies its back to square one
When raidleading i'm multitasking the following:
Buffs
Pullers
Mt's
Ot's
Ml's
Groups
Tactics
Behavior
Healers
Agro
Dps
Strategy
Questions
Suggestions
Whispers
Party
Guild
Raid
and last night even Official Reports to GM's (blizz)
Speaking with GM's of the respectfull tribe-guilds
Keeping my eye on new ppl
Finding out what ppl play their class to benefit the raid and how they could improve
etc...
And beside that i'm trying to play my class the best I can and have some fun. So I might not smile...but i'm not as stern as I might appear
So sorry if I'm a bit short in answering questions / giving orders and all....but I have enough on my mind to last me all night, irritating members of whatever guild can be expected to be reported to their gm. So erm.... bring ur best guildies plz
Now I'll get off of eido's back again...
On to the topic:
Erm... short answer:
Dpsmeters don't mean sh-- as u can not tell what someone is doing in the meanwhile. It is a snapshot of a fragment of a much bigger picture. It is however a nice way to see if you could improve yourself. If you see yourself @ the bottom of the list and someone of the same class @ the top you can start a conversation asking their point of view and tips / tactics.
What I would like to see is everyone using the KTM or KTH threatmeter. It is a nice way to view ppl who are careless with dps and ppl who are playing their classes right. It is also a deadgiveaway for ppl who always dps before the call and allows them to see it for themselves what dmg their single dps actually does for a raid.
I believe a strict policy is the way forward. Get all the jokers / annoying ppl out and u'll get a much jollier raid. Ppl will WANT to perform better for the benefit of the raid as they'll strive to be the best amongst their peers. I can not blame ppl for not giving their all @ the moment as it seems we let every monkey in @ the moment. I could (but won't) give u a list of ppl who I think should have been disallowed from joining, untill they've learned to behave themselves in raid, a long time ago.
So keep up the strict rules, all we can achieve is either make ppl adapt to socially accepted rules or leave because they feel they can not comply....either way problem solved !
It was indeed one of the worst experiences from a social view...but from a tactics / raid view it was one of the best. Socially: it was a fiasco with ppl breaking rules and being kicked when that could have been prevented so easily...I dont know about you guys but for me todays raid was one of the most frustrating and irritating experiences ive had so far in wow. ...
Raid wise: we had perfect NO dps before the call... and how about that second try on geddon... blimey it was like synchronised swimming
Mostly true... I was relieved when some ppl had left and when we killed some (unneeded mobs) and they dropped a nice epic. But it was hectic indeed.I play (or at least i started out) playing this game for fun and relaxation, but there was nothing fun or relaxing about this nights run.
I had to take a small break somewhere in between mumbling and cursing to whatever crossed my pathIt just left me drained in all the ways it is not suppose to.
but I managed to let it slide right down the toilet... lollol... well there is this thing called delegating tasks...... i concure with the new hard ass policy, but is does not leave much room for smiles and giggles when ppl .....etc. And i kind of get it threefold since im the guildleader of Night Marauders: 1) in the raid it self, 2) in guildchat since some of my members where involved in the overconfident raidchat use, 3) by mere tells from confused and p----- off members and angry RLs telling me to "control my members". And to top it off, im the main puller for fracks sake. Im sorry, but what do you want me to do? Throw me a frigging bone for jebus sake. ...... Im only one person. So thats first of why i had to decline my pulling position in the middle og the raid so i could "control my members". All i want to do is play the game. Have fun. Maybe even get an epic now and then if im lucky. But no, not happpening.
...From my point of view its simple: I have a puller
A GM of one of the guilds
And a raidmember
That you perform all these rolls yourself is up to you.
It is no secret that NM is disorganised at the moment and that there are a lot of ppl in there that shouldn't even be allowed anywhere near our nice group of friends. If you feel the need to keep these ppl in the guild even when they misbehave you have an extra task on your hands.
for example: "10/31/2006 Reason to join= i would like to join a guild doing beginning part of high lvl instances such as MC and AQ 20 and i woud be pleased to do ZG to ...........I know that some in the guild don't like me very much, i'm not gonna mention names but i would to ask them myself WHY they not like me i got some stuffs for guild bank EVEN a epic, i'm 17 years old and i'm From norway."
is the application of assasinator... who was one of the ppl kicked for not using the appropriate chatchannels even after being told to do so. That he was allowed into the guild is something I wonder about: "why"... that he gets to go on one of our raids after a week is also a mystery to me... so in all, u could have prevented yourself a lot of grief by just starting @ the beginning.
No assasinator, No member kicked from raid, No whispers, guildchat, tribeschatter, yelling etc etc... and no RL telling you to control your guildy.
So i'm not telling you how you should organise things, but I can point out some flaws at the way you have done it up to now.
If you like to be puller, gr8 !, pull away.
If you need to sort out some guildies because they misbehave... thats the risk of being GM. If you only take ppl u can vouch for you don't have these kind of problems. Or just delegate one of the officers the task of dealing with such individuals. I dunno...
If you enjoy raiding because noone is irritating.... gr8
But that does mean I have to take measurements against ppl spoiling the fun. If they turn out to be your guildies its back to square one .... smiling once in while
Lol i'm not p--- off but I do wanna put some things in perspective:I dont know. Im just a little frustrated about our luck lately. Even when things finaly seems to go good we pick the short straw in the respawn department. Its... just ... not .. fair. Nah, nvm. Tired and ranting here. Had to get it of my chest. Hope i didnt p--- anyone of.
When raidleading i'm multitasking the following:
Buffs
Pullers
Mt's
Ot's
Ml's
Groups
Tactics
Behavior
Healers
Agro
Dps
Strategy
Questions
Suggestions
Whispers
Party
Guild
Raid
and last night even Official Reports to GM's (blizz)
Speaking with GM's of the respectfull tribe-guilds
Keeping my eye on new ppl
Finding out what ppl play their class to benefit the raid and how they could improve
etc...
And beside that i'm trying to play my class the best I can and have some fun. So I might not smile...but i'm not as stern as I might appear
So sorry if I'm a bit short in answering questions / giving orders and all....but I have enough on my mind to last me all night, irritating members of whatever guild can be expected to be reported to their gm. So erm.... bring ur best guildies plz
agree with u 100%Most of you are doing one heck of a job, and i love raiding with you guys
Now I'll get off of eido's back again
...On to the topic:
Erm... short answer:
Dpsmeters don't mean sh-- as u can not tell what someone is doing in the meanwhile. It is a snapshot of a fragment of a much bigger picture. It is however a nice way to see if you could improve yourself. If you see yourself @ the bottom of the list and someone of the same class @ the top you can start a conversation asking their point of view and tips / tactics.
What I would like to see is everyone using the KTM or KTH threatmeter. It is a nice way to view ppl who are careless with dps and ppl who are playing their classes right. It is also a deadgiveaway for ppl who always dps before the call and allows them to see it for themselves what dmg their single dps actually does for a raid.
I believe a strict policy is the way forward. Get all the jokers / annoying ppl out and u'll get a much jollier raid. Ppl will WANT to perform better for the benefit of the raid as they'll strive to be the best amongst their peers. I can not blame ppl for not giving their all @ the moment as it seems we let every monkey in @ the moment. I could (but won't) give u a list of ppl who I think should have been disallowed from joining, untill they've learned to behave themselves in raid, a long time ago.
So keep up the strict rules, all we can achieve is either make ppl adapt to socially accepted rules or leave because they feel they can not comply....either way problem solved !
Ahh yes, Assasinator. To be perfectly honest i did wonder who invited him in the guild (sorry Assasinator), because i certainly didnt after that application. But since it must be one of my officers, i have to trust there judgement to a certain degree. But you make it sound like this whole thing could have been avoided if only he hadnt been there: "No assasinator, No member kicked from raid, No whispers, guildchat, tribeschatter, yelling etc etc... and no RL telling you to control your guildy." Bit harsh in my book i must say. Not cool. As far as i remember more than one person was kicked, and not only from NM either, so just cut it out. Im not saying Assasinator wasnt yelling, or a pain, but he wasnt the one pulling teh mobs, and it was some of the other players (dont kkow who but i could imagine healed) that told him to Yell if he wanted teh RLs attention, since he wouldnt answer his tells. Yes that is probably the worst advice in the history of bad advice, but apparantly he was noobish enough to belive him and go for it. But again, my point being - no assasinator would still mean trouble.
And about "that he gets to go on one of our raids after a week is also a mystery to me" - well again i didnt invite him, the rl did. How to sign up for the coalition raids is no big secret. All our members can read about it on our forum.
And finally: "So i'm not telling you how you should organise things, but I can point out some flaws at the way you have done it up to now." I never said i was flawless, but i think that goes both ways. Not trying to start a fight here, but i really cant agree with all you are writing (some of it, sure). Mostly im just tired of having to spend a friday night being pulled in 20 directions at once and afterwards being left with a feeliig that you just wasted 3 hours for nothing. But aparantly its my own fault, so i guess ill just pass fridays from now on...
And about "that he gets to go on one of our raids after a week is also a mystery to me" - well again i didnt invite him, the rl did. How to sign up for the coalition raids is no big secret. All our members can read about it on our forum.
And finally: "So i'm not telling you how you should organise things, but I can point out some flaws at the way you have done it up to now." I never said i was flawless, but i think that goes both ways. Not trying to start a fight here, but i really cant agree with all you are writing (some of it, sure). Mostly im just tired of having to spend a friday night being pulled in 20 directions at once and afterwards being left with a feeliig that you just wasted 3 hours for nothing. But aparantly its my own fault, so i guess ill just pass fridays from now on...
I'm not saying its your own fault.
I'm saying things can be avoided with hindsight.
U said u were bombarded with whispers, guildchat, raidleaders telling you to control your guildy etc...
I just pointed out that for example assasinator not being allowed into the guild/raid would have saved you a lot of grief on that specific night. For it was him who was kicked, who was yelling and led to me asking you to control your guildy.
Hence my conclusion: no assasinator no grief...
You wanted to blow off steam because you had such a hectic night and didn't enjoy the raid.
As a raidleader I like to ensure all of the members enjoy the raid. If I see a problem which from my point of view could be easily fixed thus granting a (or more) member(s) a more pleasant experience while raiding I will take the oppurtunity to demonstrate.
If u think healed didn't give Feral Instinct any trouble you aren't rly aware of all that went on.
I also had to instruct others (like I instructed you) to take care of healed because him being kicked led to the same troubles within our guild / amongst the leaders of feral instinct etc....
(as an example we had to kick him from teamspeak because he was making more amok there)
And same went for knokle
Saying that the RL invited someone from your guild and then implying that that was a bad call is a bit weird if u ask me.
There are 4 guilds in the coalition of which members can apply to raid with us. I take it you want equal distribution of rights so that all who apply have a chance of being invited. Please don't tell me I have to stop inviting ppl from night marauders because the officers of night marauders can not be trusted to invite appropriate ppl hence it would be safer to only invite ppl who we know. I do not think that was what the coalition is about.
A wrong call from one of your officers is inadvertably something the tribes raid suffer from. Hence me saying....why is someone ALLOWED to put his name down when he's only joined the other week under weird circumstances..... I don't know who have been in NM for longer than a month let alone who have been in the guild for a longer period than that. That is something only officers/gm of NM can verify / see to. So laying the blame at the raidleaders is a bit weird imo.
So don't take it personal but from a raidleader point of view: you are in charge of who gets to sign up from the Night Marauders. If you do not know someone who has signed up (from your guild) it is your right/duty to instruct the raidleaders not to invite them.
Like I said: bring your best guildies and all will be fine
ps: as for assasinator beginning to yell because his tells weren't answered... he asked me ONCE why he was kicked and I replied by saying that he did not use the appropriate chatchannels after being told/warned to do so. that was IT. no more whispers of any kind from him....
I'm saying things can be avoided with hindsight.
U said u were bombarded with whispers, guildchat, raidleaders telling you to control your guildy etc...
I just pointed out that for example assasinator not being allowed into the guild/raid would have saved you a lot of grief on that specific night. For it was him who was kicked, who was yelling and led to me asking you to control your guildy.
Hence my conclusion: no assasinator no grief...
You wanted to blow off steam because you had such a hectic night and didn't enjoy the raid.
As a raidleader I like to ensure all of the members enjoy the raid. If I see a problem which from my point of view could be easily fixed thus granting a (or more) member(s) a more pleasant experience while raiding I will take the oppurtunity to demonstrate.
If u think healed didn't give Feral Instinct any trouble you aren't rly aware of all that went on.
I also had to instruct others (like I instructed you) to take care of healed because him being kicked led to the same troubles within our guild / amongst the leaders of feral instinct etc....
(as an example we had to kick him from teamspeak because he was making more amok there)
And same went for knokle
Saying that the RL invited someone from your guild and then implying that that was a bad call is a bit weird if u ask me.
There are 4 guilds in the coalition of which members can apply to raid with us. I take it you want equal distribution of rights so that all who apply have a chance of being invited. Please don't tell me I have to stop inviting ppl from night marauders because the officers of night marauders can not be trusted to invite appropriate ppl hence it would be safer to only invite ppl who we know. I do not think that was what the coalition is about.
A wrong call from one of your officers is inadvertably something the tribes raid suffer from. Hence me saying....why is someone ALLOWED to put his name down when he's only joined the other week under weird circumstances..... I don't know who have been in NM for longer than a month let alone who have been in the guild for a longer period than that. That is something only officers/gm of NM can verify / see to. So laying the blame at the raidleaders is a bit weird imo.
So don't take it personal but from a raidleader point of view: you are in charge of who gets to sign up from the Night Marauders. If you do not know someone who has signed up (from your guild) it is your right/duty to instruct the raidleaders not to invite them.
Like I said: bring your best guildies and all will be fine
ps: as for assasinator beginning to yell because his tells weren't answered... he asked me ONCE why he was kicked and I replied by saying that he did not use the appropriate chatchannels after being told/warned to do so. that was IT. no more whispers of any kind from him....