Sunday Nite Aggro

Well...Tizz if I were you I would be carefull with defending "the guild"

I mean, I for example wasn't half aware of whats going on, and for me: when Koren apologized it was all ok for me (I mean, what else do you want him to do then say sorry and say he wouldn't do this anymore?) , so I for one didn't need anyone to stand up for me. And it also wasn't clear to me that you were speaking for us all, or even what the problem was! You just left and Koren didn't even know why, half the raid didn't know why, so your point didn't come around clear at all. It was all kinda messy...everyone talking...And even if it did...I don't think everyone needed/wanted you to speak/make a statement for "the guild". (If I have a problem with something, for me Nazgiliath f.e, I talk to Koren about it myself,or say it out loud (today with the Elibelly/Theseus thing) and I find that more people had private /w with Koren about stuff they didn't like)

This way, well, you can have people disagreeing with your behaviour, even if you think you are sticking up for them. I didn't go as far as to call you childish but I can imagine others in the same position as me were annoyed by you leaving and not knowing what was going on. And it's understandable that you get annoyed then because you think you are making a statement for the guild and then they backstab you.

But hey, if people don't understand/want that you are speaking for them/ and they don't like your behaviour they are bound to tell you that, same as you tell it when you don't like something. And this is ofcourse like a backstab because your intentions are good.

Maybe people complain in guild chat but if they don't say that in raid chat, apparently they don't bother enough to make a fuzz about it and just want to get it off their chest or something? Then why would you do that for them? You can always state your own opinion, everyone should, as long as you are speaking for yourself. This way you won't feel betrayed too if someone you think you are helping is not really being...thankfull...to say nicely. (ofcourse, I don't think anyone should be rude to you/calling you names whatever you do! Cause you are a great girl and...we should all play nice But that is a whole different subject)

I hope I get my meaning straight here :S wish you were dutch

Anyway I was one of the people that didn't like it that you and Wigdar left, mostly cause I hate it when people leave when something happens they don't like, especially if I don't understand why. And even more when I hear I have to agree with that choice/behaviour, because you are doing it to stand up for me. Because: ...from my side at that moment, your helping wasn't helping.

So...you must do what you want, I respect that and won't think less of you. I don't want you raiding a raid when you don't want to. But don't be mad at me for not liking your behaviour even tho you are trying to stand up for me.

I wasn't /w you that you were childish or anything else, I was just keeping quiet as I thought best at that moment cause I just wanted to go to ZG, but I'm just being frank here, speaking up about my thoughts and emotions to try to make you understand why these things can happen.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across here. I always try to understand the feelings/thoughts behind every side in problems like this, so I understand why it happened. Makes it easier to prevent it next time.

That said...and hopefully no harsh feelings.. : Nice post Twaerl...

I do think it would be handy to have a "spokesperson" for DA. That if we have a problem, we talk it over together and have one person bring that forward to the coalition with a post that reflects it well (the raid itself is never a good place to fight)

But then we have to point out that spokesperson, so that everyone knows that he is a spokesperson and they can go to him with problems/suggestions. This would prevent 1000 posts resulting in flamewars maybe, and Tizzi getting hurt because she's trying to be a spokesperson out of her own but the rest doesnt know that and Tizz doesn't know really what everyone's opinion is

And Koren will be rid of a lot of /w from people telling him stuff they don't like. I think that can overwhelm him too and that won't help him making good decisions

/sigh

sorry for long post, I just hate hard feelings, makes my tummy ache

/love

we already have spokespersons lis

they are the officers of our guild of which Tizzi is one.

she is appointed to speak up if there are things not going as planned for the guild and she did quite rightly so!

so she did as she was expected and appointed to.

exactly - which is why I wanted to step down as officer - and I did not say I was speaking for/on behalf of/acting for the entire guild - but the general consensus of opinions given by signed up ppl in guild from the start of all the kerfuffle was one of protest and annoyance - which I agreed with/voiced and to no avail - everyone has an opinion that should be taken into account when major changes are planned or obvious faults in the system show up - when ppl DO express that opinion or post on forums or /w others inc GM/Officers/RL and feel they are ignored - or the same issue which caused bad feeling on a previous run arises again which could easily have been prevented - ppl get annoyed

but hey - ur right ofc, I should ignore all statements made by guildies in tribes channel, officer chat, guild and whispers and my own opinion and just stfu - luckily I already booked other raids this week so it isn't a problem - and I can continue doing this, I can resign as officer (Wig has to demote me as I cannot demote myself) or even leave guild if that is now the general consensus of opinion - I have more important things to worry about this week

I think you misunderstood it somewhere along the line Wig.

Still misreading it then, you're saying it again here.

Being upfront speaking up for yourself and guildies gets you in the line of fire............... and thats just what happens.. has got nothing to do with it being acceptable or not.....

So it happens, nothing to do with acceptable or not, in other words face it, accept it, get over it and move on. Thats the general idea i'm starting to get out of this thread. This has been up for more then a day now. I've seen 7 people posting in this thread, although it is a thread from someone who wants to step down as an officer because she was hurt for getting a smack in the face from people that she tried to speak for. Not a single appoligy has been made and only 6 people care to make a comment. And all the comments i've read is that she did something wrong, when the only thing she did was speak out what ALOT of people were saying in guildchat, officers chat etc.

You all want to make it sound like it was not right for Tizzi (or me probably) for leaving the raid when she did because she probably felt very hurt. I left the raid and the only comment i got was "are you going Wig or are you getting your priest" Thats it! Noone bothered to ask me what was wrong. I think it's save to say that not alot of people have asked Tizzi what was wrong, even though she left the guild with the alt she was playing on. You were too busy rolling in the epics probably, no time for such unimportant things as a guildie thats unhappy and that left the guild.

Your judging people for leaving the raid, well i judge you for NOT leaving the raid. There were serious things going on and you just keep going. Just the same as seeing someone get hit by a car and just drive on through. Gotta get to work, so no time to stop and see if he's alright. Great attitude, very nice of you.

Dear Wig/Wug

i will keep on saying it.......

Its not my opinion, its damn harsh reality, i've been in sveral RL jobs, where i always have been the one speaking upfront, and ?'ve always been the first one to take the blows........

Its not something i like to do......... it just comes with the job....

That is the only statement i make........ That it comes with the job........ i'm not saying anything about wether its acceptable that people are rude, not listening, flaming etc etc etc.

I DO understand very well why you left, i even asked you to come back and you explained to me why you didn't....

I DO understand why Tizz left and that her feelings got hurt.......

My post is and was never meant to be mitigating any circumstances and not at all meant as saying:

Well it happens, get on with your life....

My post is ment to open the eyes of those others that didn't realize what blows Tizzi might have been taking prier to this event.........

Since we are all human its very likely that at some point someone gets fed up with it all... as happened sunday with Tizz.............

Personally i don't like to judge anybody at al in any way....

I didn't judge you or Tizz for leaving the raid.... i don't judge others for NOT leaving......

We all have a different way of looking at this game.......

Some don't care at all about who behind a char.... ( like your nice friend Rhys for example) and there's a lot that do (like probably at least 80% of this guild or even more)

I think my posting on this thread (while i dropped in on sunday when it all had happened before i was there) puts my very clearly in the group that DOES care A LOT!!!

Since we don't all have the same view about what is important we don't all react the same....

Please try to be respectfull to eachother without judging at all.........

Try to listen to each other

Tizz did nothing wrong in my opinion..... (unless you would call reacting as a human being with emotions and feelings wrong)

The people who flamed Tizz reacted on half-informed conclusions..... some of them never even knew why she or you left Wig.......

Thats what made this whole thing as un-transparent as a big mud-puddle.....

everyone has been making judgements on hearin a story from one side...........

STOP JUDGING EACH OTHER!!!!!

AND START LISTENING TO EACHOTHER

And if there's some things i would like to make clear then its that i don't think at all that Tizz should leave the guild....... i don't this whole thing was good for anybody ........ i dont think what happened is acceptable.... i don't think we should all get over this without considerin what happend.....

I DO think that speaking up for yourself and your guildies put you in the line of fire.........

I DO NOT think that the way you get flamed for that is alright.....

Neither Tizz or you did something wrong.........

I don't think anybody who posted on this thread has the intention to blame you both for anything.......

Leaving a raid without saying goodbye because u disagree about something can flag u as childish / immature / whining / etc...
U don't like to be treated in a specific matter so u leave. And u treat everybody else in a just as bad matter by doing so without saying goodbye.

The statement Yorga made in his post is at least to say very very true.....
It's one of the main reason why people get blacklisted...

It's not ment to judge you in anyway at all.... its merely to make clear why all those other people in the raid weren't happy with the two of you leaving the raid.....

You all want to make it sound like it was not right for Tizzi (or me probably) for leaving the raid when she did because she probably felt very hurt. I left the raid and the only comment i got was "are you going Wig or are you getting your priest" Thats it! Noone bothered to ask me what was wrong. I think it's save to say that not alot of people have asked Tizzi what was wrong, even though she left the guild with the alt she was playing on. You were too busy rolling in the epics probably, no time for such unimportant things as a guildie thats unhappy and that left the guild.

And for as far as this remark Wig, by leaving the guild with that alt Tizz made it very clear that she was not really in the mood to discuss this any further.....(at least that was the impression it gave me....... ) so thats why I didn't ask any further....

And i don't really think that people care more about rolling for epics...........

And its not only DA people that where in the raid so.........

So i hope i made my statement so damn clear that it can't be misread in any way what so ever.....

I DO care a lot about what is happening in here right now, cause this guild is really making me feel at home...

Having said this i close my statement with one last quote

/sigh
sorry for long post, I just hate hard feelings, makes my tummy ache

/love

That goes for me too.......

Yours sincerely,

Twaerl

Not sure where to post this, so I?ll post it on both ?Sunday aggro thread on DA forum, and on the ZG loot thread on tribes forum?(I hope you forgive all typos and possible mental errors. This post has not been made to flame, blame or shame anyone. I am just trying to figure out why we are in this situation and how we might solve it.).

I am slightly baffled about the situation that has erupted during the last two days or so, both in Death Angels (communication probs and hurt feelings) and in Tribes of war (loot sharing). Unfortunately (or maybe fortu-nately) I have been more or less absent during these 2 days so I have had to rely on second hand info about the course of events (I came very late to Sundays ZG and had to pass raid on Monday totally due to rl work situation).,

I think that situation more or less due to the fact that Death Angels has grown quite a lot and there have been some member changes and also the whole Tribes coalition has grown. DA and Tribes of war have both been very informal, with very few rules. In small tight wowen group it is easy to communicate, trust others and know what people mean when they say something. However, when the group grows bigger and/or lots of new people join it, the communication gets fuzzy, it becomes hard to rely on old informal social agreements and instead of them you have a growing need for set rules.

I am not trying to convert DA or Tribes into a tightly controlled ?raid guild?, but instead trying to figure out a minimum set of rules that could prevent situation like this tearing DA/tribes apart.

Easy things first?loot:

I have been somewhat unhappy about the loots system for quite a while now. In guild 5man groups you can easily pass on some nice loot if you know that someone else wants it more than I do or that it helps him/guild more. In Tribes ZG/AQ raids this is not so much the case anymore. There are people you hardly know and whom you only meet on those raids, therefore the informal ?be a nice guy? loot sharing system just doesn?t work that well anymore.

The need/greed system has sometimes led to new comers getting all the fat loot while some long time raiders still have none, or it has enabled people rolling for loot that it is ok for them but not ?the loot? for their class/spec etc. I am extremely happy that we are finally implementing DKP system and I believe it will solve most of these probs. I hope that the forthcoming DKP system will also have a penalty for leaving the raid before the stated end time.

The event on Mondays raid where Eli apparently looted 2 items from mando was unfortunate event, but I can?t really blame Eli as I might have done the very same thing. This is because of 2 things. 1) the bow was the main loot and all hunters wanted that. Had it been rolled first, it would?ve been easy then for the winner to pass the Primal. Now if you wanted to get some loot you pretty much had to roll for both 2) I personally haven?t really considered the Primals/coins/etc as loot, but more as a class based quest item rolled separately from actual loot. This however is my personal opinion and needs to be solved when we implement the DKP system.

The ?Sunday aggro? thingy is lot harder to solve.

The fact raid was made to pass AQ on Sunday was a bad call from Koren. He has apologized and even though we don?t have to accept the initial decission, I hope we can under the circumstances forgive it. It was the first time to my knowledge that it happened and I don?t expect it to happen again.

I agree with twaerl that when people ?step out of the crowd? and say what they think is right, it possible that they will get targetted and maybe ?shot at?. No one has to like it, but it is pretty much what happens. I respect Tizzi very much for taking that risk and I hope she stays is guild and as officer (and I will excommunicate her for sure if she leaves). In this case I don?t even think people we trying to intentionally take pot shots at Tizzi, but instead we had shitty communication on maybe 8 different channels (guild chats, officer channels, raid chat, ts, + all the private whispers etc.), the following misunderstood actions and intentions etc lead to more of the same and some hurt feelings too. I can only echo what Twaerl so nicely said?I care about all of you and I hope people would try to listen to each others more and and maybe forgive too?

To minimize the possiblity of things like this happening in future Tribes raids, we might want to make a short set of rules that should cover things like looting (dkp), possible penalty for being late/leaving early, changin raid instance (maybe only if the originally agreed instance can?t be done for some reason, and even then only after voting etc.). The rules migth also cover the ?command chain?. Quite many raid groups follow a simple ?shut up and do as the raid leader tells you to do? rule. I personally prefer the free style raiding we have been doing by far, but it can lead to some probs like the one we have had now. We might try to find somekind of somekind of ?middle path?.

Lostsoul

Well i appriciate your thoughts Twaerl. I don't agree with all of them, but that's not a problem in itself. I respect people for their opinion even if it's not my own. I don't think bad about you in anyway. Alot of what i'm typing here is also meant in general, but gets triggered by certain remarks in a post (like Turth's post) There not all only directed at the person i'm responding to at that time. But since so few even bother to say anything i have to react to people that sometimes don't always deserve that, i'm sorry for that.

Like you said, who's speaking upfront gets the blows. I totally agree with that, however not when the blows come from the back. I can't and won't find that a normal thing. I've had situations in jobs just like you had. One in particular comes into my mind.

I've worked as a on-call worker (or whatever you call that in English ) for a while in a factory. At a certain day one of the shift bosses called some other on-call worker out of his bed at 5 o'clock in the morning because he was needed in the factory and the shift boss from the day had made a mistake in the number of people he ordered. They guy gets there within half an hour(as fast as he can). He's been in the factory for 15 minutes when the shift boss walks up to him and says sorry, i made a mistake you can go again. Now you gotta understand that as on-call workers we would only get paid for the hours we worked. So this guy had to drag himself out of bed at 5 o'clock in the morning and wouldn't get paid at all. I had worked with the guy for quite a while. He was a nice but shy guy, so he never said anything about it. I then stepped in and exploded in that shift boss his face that this was no way of treating people. Caused quite an uproar with that, the shift boss wanting to kick me out of the factory and that led to just about all of the factory standing behind me to face that boss (who was a big arse anyway). They have 3 other shift bosses there and the boss of all the shift bosses ended up calling them about me to resolve the issue. In the end the shift boss had to apoligise to me and the guy he wanted to send away. The guy got to clean up some things all day and got paid all day. Needless to say it never got alright between me and that shiftboss again

Now this is the kind of blows i expect when i speak out to defend someone. The person your speaking out at might swing at you. ?'m fully prepared to face any concequences as a result of that. I was prepared to start looking for another job at that time. Thats the price you might have to pay and i would have gladly paid it at that time, because it felt like the right thing to do.

However last sunday Koren didn't lash out on me (the one i was opposing at that time). There weren't any consequences from his side. We have spoken about it and all is well again. The people that did lash out were the people that were being defended (no not you, i know). So it was like that guy from the factory saying to all the bosses that i should have been removed from the job.

And both Tizzi and me tried to talk about what happened/was going on in raidchat. People didn't respond. There were even people that ranted in guildchat, but as soon as they hit the enter key hit the hearthstone button to go to ZG. When noone reacted to that Tizzi left the raid. I followed soon after as i was getting more and more shocked about the lack of response. And that is a signal, just as leaving the guild is a signal. That has nothing to do with childish or whatever. What else was there to do when clearly it could not be discussed. People weren't interested in that. She (and i) could have stayed in the raid, pretending all was well just like most of you. But that goes against my nature. So i could not stay, i could not talk about it, what other options did i have? I did the only one left for me and that was leave. And everyone (or almost anyway) just ignores it and keeps on doing what they are doing. That is not what friendship is about for me (even if it is a virtual one). Friends stick out for eachother and help eachother as much as they can. Clearly that friendship thats been boasted about so many times doesn't exist or people have a funny way of showing it.

At first when Tizzi said she wanted to step down as officers i was thinking that that was quite a big step to take. Starting to feel more and more that it was the right thing to do now though and considering it myself also.

If you feel the need to step down i can't stop ya.....

i would hate to see this happen though.......

I'd rather see we try and improve the way we treat each other in this guild and work to get the right feeling back....

I really like(d) the way things are goin in this guild..... its almost as you have "RL Friends"........

Please lets all be carefull in making decisions with that much impact.......

I will always respect whatever choice you , Tizz or anybody else in this guild makes.......... but i will also always try to keep these people together cause i really liking them more an more each day.........

(Even if that means i have to stand upside down in my underwear to make you laugh again)

You both now how important you haven been and will be for the future of DA......... and so there's many others with you, cause everybody... no matter if you're a new member or GM or officer or whatever makes this guild to what it is.....

We all have our good sides and our shadowy parts (specially those damn priest LOL) so lets all try to give this event a place in our WOW-life and learn from it... so we can prevent it from happening again........

You both stepping would actually make those who love and respect the both of you into unwilling victims of those who don't care about all of it..........

I don't wanne make you feel guilty about anything if you would step down but in my opinion the good should never suffer from something the bad have done..............

So pleaze think long before you decide what you will do....... (but always follow your heart)

Twaerl

Twaerl u just posted what I was trying very desperately to find the correct words for..

I have to say I would be totally upset if u and tizzi decided to step down nontheless..ofcourse I cant stop u, ofcourse I cant make u.

but it would make me feel reaaaally bad :S I liked this guild as it is. it is 10x better then my last (in which I was an officer btw) and I would love to keep it just the way it is. I'm just as amazed as wigdar by the total lack of response in the DKP thread. I see Twaerl and Wig both having good points in this thread.

but cant we just make an arrangement here and go on? why does it have to get so out of control that we are losing our GM and one of our officers. I've been thinking about who should be the next GM then and frankly I cant see anyone else become as good as wigdar in putting the guild first as I think a guildmaster should do.

and about the thing where the flames got from: Tizzi was probably prepared to take flames from the other side of the guildfence, but instead she got it from within. if I was her? I would have been out of the guild just the same. playing an alt, just minding my own bussiness. but even in this topic she gets a bit of flames from people who she was trying to defend, while wigdar did just the same and he gets a bit of "oh ok he left. perhaps some GM bussiness." well I would be mad as hell about that. I think tizzi even was mild probably.

lets not get this out of control. lets stop this stupid ranting from the guild. lets just stop right here.

we need not to let things go wrong and lose 2 so good and friendly people I have gotten to respect (and love )

we are supposed to work together in a guild

lets do that!

Im sorry if I hurt someone with my post. And believe me, Twaerl means no harm either I know for sure.

I guess you figured out that people like me, Twaerl and Yorga didn't know that officers had this role that we proposed, otherwise we wouldn't have proposed it .

And this stresses my point: that I think lots of people didn't know she was standing up for us, for what she felt was going on for the guild. This needs to be more organized, cause I didn't hear anyone ask: ok, calm down you all, what shall I say to Koren about this?

Its just for me, I've been asking in guild chat, raid chat, and ts, why everyone is so mad. I asked Tizzi, what's wrong? Wigdar, why are you leaving? No response. It's understandable in the confusion, but I did not know. I have not seen Tizzi or you say why you left, what your problem was, it only became clear to me the next day on the forum when you explained it there.

At that moment, the only thing I could know from the little sprinkles of information I got throught the chats, it was that you and Tizzi left because we weren't going to AQ. ? saw that Koren was really baffled that he caused this much trouble and he said sorry very clearly and that he wouldn't do it again. For me, then that's the best he can do, he can't turn back time, people make mistakes and faulty judgements. So that's why I stayed, and you can disagree with that that is your own right. But this is why, and why I did not agree with you leaving. I hope you an understand that, just like I can understand you're point of view.

I like to stress again that I was not mad at anyone that day, I had enough problems in my own head so I did not feel like fighting with anyone.

I just want to get clear what happens on both sides.

I respect you a lot Tizzi, and I hate it that you felt hurt and I don't think you did wrong. But the way it was done, well, that could've been better. To ask the Dr Phil way: "How is it working for you". Well, not good, because you feel hurt for people that you try to defend backstabbing you. But if we would try to do this more cooled down and more organized, and everyone really knew what is going on/ what everyone's opinion was, everyone knew that Tizzi/other spokesperson is going to defend us, you wouldn't have people backstabbing you.

And if they do anyway, while they know that you are trying to defend the overall view of the guild, and we talked about what you were going to say on behalf of the raid, then you have really the right to be mad at them.