Tides of War

Hi all I'm going to let off some steam.

[HI, this is tbar comments in bold brackets []. I thought this might be the easiest way to address Dingo's concerns and comments .. there is also a long detailed responce/reply]

Right, just received an email welcoming Icy to the squad. Then after he's been accepted he's having rules and regulations being thrown at him (which are also terms and conditions for his membership).

[Yes, these are legals and to make sure everyone that is new to the club has a full understanding]

Now apparently he has to pay 10.00 per month to be with ToW - Most of us do not.

WTF is going on? - Where do we inherit expenses from?

[Yes... this is correct, the 10.00 is club dues .. see long responce.]

Where is this 10.00 (currency not even mentioned) going to be spent?

Does it simply go in someone's pocket?

[The 10.00 is what we think we need , as the membership grows, the due reduce. If I can make the explanation here as simply as possible.. I'll try at a risk of confusing some. We take our total expense projected and devide that by what we think the starting membership will be which yeilds an average amount per person that is needed to pay the light bill. Currently we need 250.00 - 300.00 per month to cover all expenses. We projected that we would have at lest 25 full members by April first, so we used a 10.00 figure to start with. We pay most expenses on a quartrly basis, so we will re-compute that club fee's quarterly. currently Tides of War is over 3000.00 in debt and growing.. thus the need to self support]

10.00 per month is a lot. Thats 120.00 per year. Thats not a small donation, thats money making.

[We are not money makeing, no one is making a living on the donations .. trust me. We barely keep aflot and its a real struggle. If we get the membership base .. we can reduce the monthly in time .. hopefully very in expensive.]

This is supposed to be a FREE game for people to fly. Now I see the bean counters chasing after the $$$ that can apparently be made.

[You are correct, it is a free game. What is not free is forums, websites, club organization, etc. What is not free is the time it takes for someone to do all this .. there is value involved. If all members had equal talents , time and put out the efforts and shared all the expenses we would be talking a super, super site and a club that only cost each member 1 cent per day. .. or about 3.60 per year. Myabe we will get to that point some day .. I certainly hope so ]

Icy asked in-game how to join BSS. I told him to join up on the forum and he would be accepted. If this is the treatment future recommended pilots will receive I will not recommend anyone join us again.

[icy was treated very nicely, walked thru the entire system from Team Speak, to TAA, to TAGS, etc and so forth and then taken immediatly up in the air to acertain his real talents. He's a noob we will have to train him up and give him the attention needed The one that you should not say is that he would be 'accepted' .. this is a club decssion as well as the applicant understanding the 1810 program. Icy was given full run down and explanations. You don't need to be embarassed about the way he was treated.. it was very nice and professional. ]

To put a very fine point on this, I'm furious.

[ Let off the steam Bro .. this is the way to do it. You were Gentelmen about it, made your points etc .. and you are deserving of explanation which I hope I'm providing here in total ... I would like to point out that we sure would like to see you on TS and speak with you .. might avoid you getting upset ]

Also, where has this 90 day probation period come from?

[ The 90 day has always been there. We do need a way to nicely expell someone if they are a total jerk or just not what we want representing ToW or the BSS. WE need an early eescape clause. Of course the party would receive warnings verbal and email if there was a problem, giving plenty of time for correction etc. Keep in mind that we don't 'really know' new folks until we have some play time with them .. so the current members need a way to expel someone that is not getting along with us or is totaly irritating. I really don't feel this 'probation period' is a problem or concern area .. most clubs have that clause. One he's past that probation period .. he 's a full member just like you and I with full 'voice'. Also as a foot note, donations are non-refundable, so we don't accept payment in advace for a year or give discounts etc .. too much paperwork and we want to keep this simple.]

This is becoming very militant and reminds me of communism.

[ I hope yo don't really feel that way, we are not even close to either description. If we are, then we need YOU the member to help us self correct and be what we all want the club to be. I hope that you were just steamed at the time you wrote that. ]

Grim/TBar please don't do this to ToW. When I joined it was for having fun with fellow pilots, having a good time and FRIENDLY flying matches. Now it's becoming some sort of regime. This isn't healthy and will eventually destroy ToW.

[ Appreciate your comments and warnings. I hope that you keep an eye on things, voice your opinions and give us guidence .. what you describe is certainly NOT what we want to be. For the everyday member we want exactly what you describe .. but in the background someone has to run all this, administrate all this and keep our doors open ..its just an organization and not a regime. There are no power plays or pulls .. please don't feel that 'past experiences' are setteling in here. We have been a club for 8 years and doing the same as we did back at the start .. fun place for the guys. We don't salute, assign ranks etc ... with excpetion of when we are in the air .. otherwise all are equal and equal in voice. ]

All coments are welcome..

[My comments are above in bold yellow ... and also follow with a reply in great detail. I hate to make long wordy post etc .. but this is important matter and members must feel comfortable with the club they are associated with. Again I point out that this 1810 plan is new to most, new to Tides. BSS Club is new, the members are new .. everything is new .. so I expect folks to have questions and we will all try and answer those questions .. listen to concerns .. and address things. But .. lets remember the first golden rule .. if it ain't fun .. it ain't worth it. - Respectfully /tbar ]

Lol Tango m8, I was thinking the same thing when I first joined.."How the hell are you gonna charge me 10 bucks(us currency btw) a month to play an old game that doesnt charge me a cent. Well...the answer is..for one these forums arent free among alot of other things Tbar is working on for ToW BBS. Then you have to consider the time spent on working on such things for making communication and recruiting for the squad easier...which is a lot of manhours. Seriously, I think thats why Tbar seems so senile some times(Lol:P)...he spends a lot of time working on webpages and other crap that so far I haven't seen anyone else in the squad who knows how to do it. So in actuality there's virtually none to little profit made off of the membership dues. In the future if ToW explodes with members, I'm pretty sure the dues would probably lower in amount as long as we can compensate for the expenses spent on ToW stuff.

Also, the idea Tbar talked about with me made sense concerning the fact that not everyone will or can pay the dues and thats fine. We have a plan in place that I think is practical.

Tow Members who are 18+ and can pay dues(either with money or hardwork for the squad such as webpages,forums, or whatever may arrise in the future...Tbar would be the one to talk to if you're interested in this) would be core of the ToW Squad. Others who apply that are either too young or cant pay dues would still be in ToW but something more like a reserve, don't mistake me on this they're just as important as the other members, but they would have a regular ToW member for C/O and possibly X/O. And they could become a member if someone is willing to vouch for them based on maturity and the dues...well we work that out in due time.

I guess what I'm trying to say is nobody is trying to make money off of you guys..

Tango set up your friggin Teamspeak m8, that way you stopped getting shot down by ToW tags:P

First .. I moved this topic into HQ our private area .. if you want to let off steam that is ok , but lets do so in private.

Second - Communication is most important. I happy that Dingo has made his way to the forums.

Third - Tides of War 1810 plan

In order to answer and explain some of Dingo's questions and comments .. some info is needed first. Sorry but its a long read and you don't make light of things and allow misunderstanding. Since this is YOUR club as well as my club .. all input is needed. Full explanation is needed.

What is the 1810 plan? The 1810 plan is something that Tides of War will be implementing as of January 1 2001 whereby all "official" Tides of War Community Club members will have to be eighteen years of age or older and support the club with monthly dues .. that are currently referred to as "donations".

We call the 'dues' donations because Tides of War is non-profit and is NOT a business. The Business end of things is supported by TBAR.COMpany simply to 'sign' contracts that Tides of War as a 'non-entity' can't sign. Examples of this are our Webserver Hosting Fees, Game server fees, software purchase and support fees, etc. TBAR.COMpany "donates" all the time, record keeping , etc that is needed to support Tides of War and its members.

In the eight years past, Tbar and two other members of Admin at Tides have paid the entire bill .. substantial amounts. Severs are not free. Tides owns it server so the expense is keep to minimum, however the monthly fee's still have to paid . similar to your phone bill. Misc expenses always come up, we have to pay those fee's. Members want certain services and/or game support and items such as game servers, so we have to pay those fee's. The software that is professional, supported via technicians, and not an ez target for 'hackers' takes a lot money to support. The Server Admins and the services they provide also take funds. So far we have been able to keep all these expenses very low and affordable .. but not free. Someone pays for all this, and to this date the majority of the expense has been paid by 1-3 persons.

As we grow and realize we need to self perpetuate we strive to find ways to keep our doors open and keep our happy group together. We have come to understand all to well the 'need' for financial support. In the years past we had hoped that GOOGLE ADS, Advertising, and well as depending on folks to make donations on a regular bases just does not bring in the necessary funds. We have to have some type of funding we can count on, is steady, and is supported by the members.

We can no longer just 'wait and hope' that funds come in. In September of this year we kicked out all the clubs and groups that were being hosted by Tides of War as the majority of those groups were 'users and consumers' but never contributed anything back into the system via time, work, efforts and or CASH. They used... but did not give back.

The 1810 Plan divides our memberships into two classes: Community members and Club Community Members.

1) Community Members - These are folks that simply register on our forums and/or some subsystem of Tides of War in order to use the services.

2) Community Club Members - These are the folks that 'sign up' to be official club members and support this site. They are global members to Tides of War and not restricted to any one club or activity .. ie the BSS is part of a bigger picture. Community Club Members (herein referred to as "members") are members with Voice and Special Privileges.

The 'Catch". The catch so to speak is that when we put the 1810 plan into affect on January 1 2007 what do we do with the members and members of current clubs? Do we say "oh your exempt". Do we say "Sorry, but your out in the cold now . join up or get out"? No, of curse not, Tides of War would never treat any member like that. With a new program we have to 'ease' folks in and prepare the members for what is to come so they in turn can make a decision that is best for them. Our members understand all this is not free and that it must be supported. The 10.00 we ask for is not a lot of money for all that is supported.

What do we do with members that are under 18? Just kick them out and say "too bad bro". Of course not, again Tides of War would never treat anyone like that especially youth that most of the time does not even have a means of supporting Tides via Pay Pal even if they could mow a lawn once a month. What we will do with these fine folks is create a "junior League" here at Tides of War were they will have 'sponsors' and a ways and means to stay with the club .. but not as "Voiced" members and not with all the special privileges. The plan is not worked out in total, but we have no intention of throwing folks out in the cold that have been member for years .. not even our youth members.

There have been numerous post throughout Tides of War including our publications concerning the 1810 plan. It has also been discussed via Team Speak with members who had questions etc.

As of November 1st, we did not allow any member to join any of our 'official ' clubs without being totally aware there were two qualifying rules:

1) 18+ years of age

2) Club subscription of 10.00 per month.

Any new members of ToW:Clubs have been informed, have agreed to the terms and have been sent email verification and/or "Welcome" message that clearly re-state the terms.

Specifically for the BSS Club:

The BSS club CO's and XO's have all been made aware of this 1810 plan. Member under 18 have all been made aware of the plan. BSS members have been told that the 'total plan' will not be kicked in until AFTER 4 SQUAD is over. At that time all members will have 'choice' to make. Those members that cannot stay within the current BSS Club due to either AGE or DUES will be set up with a new Squadron Tides of War will be sponsoring under the JR League program. Jr League is a name we have adopted for discussion and is NOT the final name of that program .. its a program something like a 'farm team' for US Major League Baseball so the "youth" can be called up when they become of age and thus the BSS will have pilots in long term training. It is also a place for those that simply cannot afford the due's .. and we have sponsorships plans in the works as well. We also have a 'work it off" type of sponsorship for BSS dues on the drawing board.

Bottom line is that we simply have to have some means of keep the door open .. so that we have a club and organization. A place to play, meet our buddies, horse around and have a good time.

Is the 1810 plan perfect and flawless? No, it still has some bugs and things to work out. As a group and club members .. WE will work all this out in time whereby it is fair and correct for all.

RULES AND REGULATIONS: ABOUT SAME

Bottom line is that we .. meaning BSS has very few rules .. and very simply rules.

1) Have fun .. this is mandatory.

2) Be nice

3) follow the BSS rules

4) follow the ToW Terms of Service

5) follow the ToW Code of Conduct.

The ToW terms of Service (ToS) and ToW Code of Conduct (CoC) can be found here: http://www.tidesofwar.net/bluepages/tb_leg...olicy_short.php

No one ever reads these things but for legal reasons .. as well as just 'information' they must be provided. All Web Sites and Service providers have these basic rules .. even when you register at almost any forum or site you run into these terms and rules .. and again they are so common no one every reads them they just 'check off' the box that "I agree". Lawyers .. who needs them .. kill them all. It's just the kind of world we live in these days and Lawyers say we have to have these types of legals on the site (and it cost US to have them advise us of that! .. more fee's!).

BSS Rules,

These rules are very simple and not complicated either. Practically nothing is required except that the member act like a gentlemen. See the BSS rules for specifics. Also, on our new web site the 'Rules and Reg are being outlined there as well. This club is way to new for the members to be able to 'contribute' to the club rules .. in time the BSS will expand or change the BSS rules as per the current membership (you guys) argree to. There are even basic CO/XO elections system .. however like I said everyone is too new to get involved with same, however I would be happy to discuss and review with anyone that was interested.

OTHER RULES

There are a few other rules that are common sense .. and some that are just legals applied to user by the Governments of their particular countries .. we don't address those other than to say "NO illegal activities" . again trying to keep it simple.

Who need rules?

No one .. it just mucks up the works .. but unfortunately there are a few trouble makers in ever crowed that just delight in tormenting and disturbing the good times of others .. ie we need rules to cover those situation and have a means of expelling them and/or banning them from our services. Rules also make sure everyone is covered 'equal' without prejudice etc..

Hi all I'm going to let off some steam.
[HI, this is tbar comments in bold brackets []. I thought this might be the easiest way to address Dingo's concerns and comments .. there is also a long detailed responce/reply]

Listen, TBar...

Ok, you've raised a few points and I will address those. Firstly though, I would like to say that you have caused further offence calling me 'Dingo'. You have also referred to me as 'Dingo' via email to all the BSS members. 'Dingo' is not a respectful name to call people.

BTW, as mentioned in your email, I am also NOT 'BAD_DINGO'. I have seen the pilot you talk of in the arena however I assure you it is NOT me. If you are in doubt, ask Nemo or another sysop for confirmation. Also I do not have an account name of 'Dingo' at TAA. I have never joined TAA at all. I would also like to point out that TAA games cannot be accessed from the AA site launcher. They can be seen, however when you try to launch it gives some message saying the game is locked and to try out the TAA site.

TS: Well admittedly I would like nothing better than to get on TS with you guys however at present this is proving extremely difficult. I have several reasons which I didn't want to be forced to explain, but seeing as you won't relent...

a) My partner is working strange shifts. I cannot have the PC speakers blaring and also be talking into a microphone. The bedroom is very close to the PC. Please respect this. When I joined Tow I was told nothing about you guys trying to force me into using it.

I've had some sound issues with this PC.

c) I have ISP problems. My bandwidth is being heavily throttled due to their lack of upgrades and buying extra capacity. My AA game is frequently lagging due to this and the last time I tried TS it was quite literally worse than dial-up. My peer-2-peer downloads have been coming down at less than 200 BYTES per second. Yes BYTES not KiloBYTES.

With reference to the 90 day thing, you don't need it. It's simple, if you don't like a member, remove them. They have no legal come back against you. This is not a service, or job etc though admittedly if you are going to start charging 10.00 per month you might be on touchy ground.

You also say that is not a regime yet you have in place a 90 day probation, terms and conditions (almost a contract) and various other rules and regulations. This isn't a job!!! This is a game for having fun friendly fights!

I'll respond to other points in a moment.

Due to this forums inability to parse large replies for quotes properly, I have had to break this reply into smaller sub-replies.

First .. I moved this topic into HQ our private area .. if you want to let off steam that is ok , but lets do so in private.

Ok, point taken and I apologise for any wrong doing.

Second - Communication is most important. I happy that Dingo has made his way to the forums.

As I frequently do as Tango NOT DINGO. However just because I make my way here doesn't always mean I get time to read it all or even act upon it. Please do not assume that everyone has made AA their primary daily activity in life as we all hev other things to do.

Third - Tides of War 1810 plan
In order to answer and explain some of Dingo's

TANGO god damn it, TANGO

questions and comments .. some info is needed first. Sorry but its a long read and you don't make light of things and allow misunderstanding. Since this is YOUR club as well as my club .. all input is needed. Full explanation is needed. What is the 1810 plan? The 1810 plan is something that Tides of War will be implementing as of January 1 2001 whereby all "official" Tides of War Community Club members will have to be eighteen years of age or older and support the club with monthly dues .. that are currently referred to as "donations".

Donations is not what I saw in my inbox this morning. This morning the email I received clearly stated (this has been copied/pasted): "2) You must support the squad, with a membership fee of 10.00 per month."

Clearly the word donation is not mentioned or implied anywhere.

We call the 'dues' donations because Tides of War is non-profit and is NOT a business. The Business end of things

Ok, that really is clear. Business, or not a business, that is the question..

In the eight years past

Some of which AA wasn't even online because Wireplay vanished...

, Tbar and two other members of Admin at Tides have paid the entire bill .. substantial amounts.

Ok, thats a fair point, but that has been done voluntarily by them. I certainly didn't ask this of anyone in the past 8 years. Nor do i feel it is my duty as a BSS ONLY member (I'm not playing the other games that ToW represents - Just AA) to try to repay this. I was invited to join this squad by ToW_SAJ to become a friendly member and have some fun with others as part of a newly formed squad. Now I am being given a history lesson and being told that costs must be recovered. Sorry but if you tell people all of this when they are being recruited they will not join. Likewise if you tell them after, that becomes entrapment.. which in the UK is currently illegal.

Severs are not free. Tides owns it server so the expense is keep to minimum,

Actually as someone who has been in the webhosting industry for years, i can confirm that using your own server is far more costly than using a shared server. It is not cheaper at all. I would recommend using powervps.com for a Virtual Private Server which has all the same features of a full dedi, at a fraction of the cost.

however the monthly fee's still have to paid . similar to your phone bill.

Yes, but I haven't installed a T3 connection expecting other people to pay for it and telling them that it's cheaper than a regular phone line. Currently in the UK a phone line costs ?12 per month. A T3 connection is in excess of ?10,000 per year. Can you see the comparison I am making?
Your 'owned' server (whether colocated, rented etc) is more expensive than shared hosting.

Misc expenses always come up, we have to pay those fee's. Members want certain services and/or game support and items such as game servers, so we have to pay those fee's. The software that is professional, supported via technicians, and not an ez target for 'hackers' takes a lot money to support.

This I can fully understand. All you have to mention is the cost of TS and the license fee's and I would of course understand. Not being able to use it much myself at the moment I forgot about it's costs however now you've reminded me of it (saying about other services) it has come back to me.

The Server Admins and the services they provide also take funds. So far we have been able to keep all these expenses very low and affordable .. but not free. Someone pays for all this, and to this date the majority of the expense has been paid by 1-3 persons.

There is a possibility that at some point in the future I may be able to write a voice comms program (which will be provided free if I get chance) however you would need a windows server. At present I am not into linux programming however at some point in the future, I do intend to try it out.

In September of this year we kicked out all the clubs and groups that were being hosted by Tides of War as the majority of those groups were 'users and consumers' but never contributed anything back into the system via time, work, efforts and or CASH. They used... but did not give back.

Not everyone is in a position to donate money.

Our members understand all this is not free and that it must be supported.

On the contrary, no-one told me about this at all. I along with numerous other recruits that SAJ recruited were recruited with the knowledge that there were no requirements of ToW members.

The 10.00 we ask for is not a lot of money for all that is supported.

Well that really depends on what country you come from. If you are american then you might be fascinated to know that (unlike the movies portray us) the british do NOT all live in big mansions with posh butlers and servants. Thats only the very rich. England is not "Treasure Island". Sorry to disappoint but currently we are the heaviestly taxed country in the world.

What do we do with members that are under 18? Just kick them out and say "too bad bro". Of course not, again Tides of War would never treat anyone like that especially youth that most of the time does not even have a means of supporting Tides via Pay Pal even if they could mow a lawn once a month. What we will do with these fine folks is create a "junior League" here at Tides of War were they will have 'sponsors' and a ways and means to stay with the club .. but not as "Voiced" members and not with all the special privileges. The plan is not worked out in total, but we have no intention of throwing folks out in the cold that have been member for years .. not even our youth members.

You do realise that ToW_SAJ is only 15??? - And that he's recruited many new pilots (including myself) as members of Tow???

I will not reply to individual points about the rules and legal implications. Needless to say there should be one rule for a site like this: "Op's decisions are final and you agree by cjecking the box". That quite clearly covers any situation - editing posts, removing users, banning, etc.

This is however, becoming very political for what is supposed to be a group of friends playing a game together.

Tell me something, do you do this when you play board games or cards with people?

*SALUTE*

I agree with dingo...lol Tango(jus playin man), and u to Tbar...i mean its starting to get kinda controling...then again not really...im 17, turn 18 in March. My money is tied up for college that im goin to next fall, also gas prices...u know gas is a bitch here,and a girlfriend......and i think saj recruited me to....cant remember...whoever recruited me thank u for doin it...proud to be a BSS member...i have personal reasons to stay in the BSS...my grandpa painted the actual BSS aircraft in WW2...he also painted jets for the korean war and the Vietnam war...he died 2001...yah...

i have posted the signature on my myspace to attract more players in...i dont know if that would count as money...but...i tried making me

TBar have u tried using free forums? i have limited exp. in webdesign...i know the layout and stuff, but not fancy like u can do it...luv the new website by the way, you did a nice job with it

Tango,

Man I'm so sorry about getting your name mixed up with Bad_Dingo. I was confused over the name. I work on all this late at night and sometimes that show all too well that I'm tired and missing details. Please accept apologize for using the wrong name. I can see where maybe you felt insulted by my mistake.. please forgive me. I get lost at times.. so many folks, so many email address .. and dern it, some of these folks change their name ever other day

As stated early .. when We Started up BSS there was no 1810 plan. Now that we are starting up on Jan 1, any member we recruit or in any means bring into Tides of War for any group .. we do very clearly tell them about the requirements etc .. including the club dues.

The Current BSS is something I have to deal with, and I've already told all the guys that they don't have to even worry about things until AFTER 4 squad. I'm thinking that 4 squad would not be over until Feb .. or even March. With that in mind I really did not think anyone would be affected until March.

Tides of War is non profit and not a business. We need funding to stay open, plain and simply. We need the members of the club to help with those needs. The alternative is to shut it down.

Sorry but if you tell people all of this when they are being recruited they will not join.

We do tell them, every new member is told. Thye do join, two new members this week. There are current members .. that are fairly new , like yourself .. that have not been told directly .. but you will be when 4 Squad come to and end .. and you will be given choices ... good choices. Understand that part of this plan has been seen by current member in part .. like you saw with the copy of the new Welcome Email you read that has the 10.00 due statement. Honestly, you really don't have a worry yet... and keep in mind th eplan is not in final yet .. we are still working on it.

Not everyone is in a position to donate money.

You are correct, and we don't want to exclude any current members .. we have a plan to help them out. They can 'work for it" in some manner, we always need some type of talent or project done. Sometimes this is worth far more than the club dues.. As for new members, they will clearly understand what the requirements are.

On the contrary, no-one told me about this at all. I along with numerous other recruits that SAJ recruited were recruited with the knowledge that there were no requirements of ToW members.

There are virtually no requirements. No one told you because there was no 1810 plan when you were brought in. Now we are implementing one .. and current BSS members, like yourself don't need to worry about anything until 4 Squad is over .. or about March.
Yes, prior to that time you will receive email .. directed to an information and feedback post here on Tides that will outline 1810 and all the ramifications .. and alternative choices that will be available to you. You will not be mistreated or abused

You do realise that ToW_SAJ is only 15??? - And that he's recruited many new pilots (including myself) as members of Tow???

Yes, very much so. Saj knows about the plan and is already slated as CO of the new group for those under 18 .. and those that just can't afford the donation / club dues . Saj has done a wonderful job recruiting for us .. Salute!

Ok, that really is clear. Business, or not a business, that is the question..

Tides of War is NOT a business, we are non-profit in total. We do need something or someone to sign contracts for us .. and that entity is TBAR.COMpany .. which is Tbar, or me. Sorry if that was not clear.
I don't have any problem in reporting the donations, amounts, expense etc... or in genreal what "clubs" do.

Donations is not what I saw in my inbox this morning. This morning the email I received clearly stated (this has been copied/pasted): "2) You must support the squad, with a membership fee of 10.00 per month."
Clearly the word donation is not mentioned or implied anywhere.

I think you are literally picking up on "donation' as a true definition. We are guilty of using "donation" , "subscription" and "dues" as if they all have the same meaning .. ie we need support. We could have been more careful with our wording. Because we are non-profit I used the word "donation", when we have the plan a little more presentable and polished we will probably use the term "dues". I have also used the terms "membership fee's" .. this all does need to be reviewed and kept consistant. Understand also that the welcome message is not the same welcome message you got (if you got one). This welcome message is part of the new plan. Also note that that portion of the welcome email is directed to a particular party .. its designed to ensure the party understands: 18+, plus club dues... and designed so that the new members knows the various sites we use , process's, passwords etc. We think we are doing a good job in that area.

As for the TAA site. If you want to compete within the 4 Squad League .. you have to register there and launch from there... that is their rules/conditions. You can't even see the right rooms from the other site. If you don't care to be part of the 4 Squad, that is ok .. but of course we would rather you be with us up there

Regarding Team Speak .. you explanation is fine and it would have been ok to drop either Grim or myself a private email with a short explanation... its that communication thing What you explained here need not be discussed further. I'm sure you will still get some razzing about joining us on TS .. and please do so when you can

There is a possibility that at some point in the future I may be able to write a voice comms program

If you have that kind of talents .. you could maintain our jabber server .. and charge us 10.00 per month! sounds like a good deal to me Seriously, if you can do that kind of work .. and can't or won't deal with 'dues' when the time comes .. I'm sure we can work something out for your talents.

I appreciate your conerns and welcome your comments etc .. we can only get better when we have open discussions and clear understandings.

I don't want folks to think there is some kind of major argument going on here .. on my side this is clearly a discussion .. and not a heated one at all, but contrary ... In fact I'm learning a lot from you and your comments and plan to take that experience and apply it to the presention of 1810 when its done to present to our general member audience.

Tid-bit:

If we keep growing at our current rate in "club members" by March of 2007 the club dues may only have to be about 5.00 US.

Thanxs yeah i try to pay in effect by helping out as much as possible i will also add a link on my myspace to our new website once it is all confirmed and we are happy with it.

p.s. fixing members only area at the moment

I really need to get a post in here but have no time, ok im a brit and tango mate the tax here is always going to be the highest that is a subject i could argue all day on so i wont. Ok people may or may not of noticed I am random as hell getting on always strugle for time either in or out from work and so on. As this is a big gripe on here im going to have a quick type now! so 'm from uk and work a 3 shift rotating pattern averaging 58 hours of work a week, now i do manual labour i dont sit at a desk all day sharpening pensils, i work in the manufacture of roofing batterns and lift between 40 and 60 kilos about every 8 seconds for 90% of the week. now that is a huge lump of my life and you would think $10 to me would be a very small donation, but I live with my wife (god those things are expensive) and our 9 month old son (who costs as much) We live of my wage alone and honestly i can say every month i cover expenses by between ?5 and ?20 thats how tight I'm running so $10 is just not feasable for me, I know that alot of work goes into sites such as this, but feel as I cant offer time or money I am so to say dead weight. Now I enjoy flying with BSS and would be mightily cheesed if after 4 squad it turned out I was no longer eligable to fly, you say it will effect nobody until march time but mate me and Tango are 2 people already being effected by it! I just want to know the bottom line, if there is no room for me in my situation i would rather know now. Thanks for your time hope this makes sence